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· IMA Enthusiast
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Tuning the Lithium cars for more IMA power.

You will have seen my long thread on tuning the Nimh system for more IMA power.


In that I hacked the current and the voltage to double the motor Kw output. It was very lively. :p

It involved swapping in a Lithium car inverter and dc-dc converter and using the cars original Nimh BCM/MCM module along with an up-rated 200A fuse.

So what can we do with the Lithium cars?

Well we can hack the current in exactly the same was as we did for the Nimh setup.
This will likely get us another 5-7kw or so. Taking us to ~20kw+...

The voltage is more tricky in the Lithium cars especially if we want to keep the Lithium control modules.

The Lithium MCM/BCM gets it's voltage data from three places.

1) The four BMS CAN boards on the pack.
2) A HV input into the BCM. (We can fake this as per Nimh with a very low current HV supply)
3) Serial data from the IPU IGBT module. (We can fake this as per Nimh)

So to tackle 1)

Can we make an interceptor type device that will send out perfect 75% SOC equivalent cell voltages on the CAN bus?
I'm saying 75% as at that voltage equivalent about 3.8V per cell the car will allow full assist and regen.

Yes I think we probably can fool the voltages, but this only gets us to around 190V which is where the OEM Lithium DC-DC and IGBT module max out.

To go higher we might need to use the HCH2 DC-DC which goes to 220V and possibly the HCH2 IGBT module which probably goes to a similar voltage.

That should get us firmly in the 30kw+ camp with a suitable battery pack.

Now to go even higher we need more voltage.. :eek:

So what IMA cars have higher voltage packs?
Do these dc-dc converters and inverters use the same data stream for control as the CR-Z etc? I bet they are similar.

So would a CRV 2019 or Jazz dc-dc and inverter work in a CR-Z????? Only one way to find out..

But before I start buying expensive parts.........

I'm going to need access to the Honda workshop manuals for these later models to check specs and wiring for compatibility.
Does anyone have current Honda subscription access to this data? Can you message me please.
If people want to support this research in some other way then feel free to message me.

Have a good Christmas and Thanksgiving etc. Peter UK
 

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Glad i found this post. This is along the lines of what i was thinking. Doing the current hack. Running hch2 dc-dc converter. Then a microcontroller/ can device to replace and fake the can data and do cell tap voltages based on pack voltage ÷40. Hopefully my higher voltage lto pack could be put in. Then prety much try to scale the voltage. So that 186vdc would equal 144vdc to the mcm and to the microcontroller/can module (canbed board with on board arduino) .
Hopefully this would allow me to keep most of my stock lithium components and rid of the troublesome lithium bms boards.
The other thought of option is if the lto bms boards can output could keep the lithium crz mcm happy. Then just monitor the pack with obd2c&c.

Pair all of this with the man in the middle device would be everything im after.
 

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So what IMA cars have higher voltage packs?
Do these dc-dc converters and inverters use the same data stream for control as the CR-Z etc? I bet they are similar.

So would a CRV 2019 or Jazz dc-dc and inverter work in a CR-Z????? Only one way to find out..

But before I start buying expensive parts.........
Do we know (yet) what the max possible power we can ask of the IMA motor is?
If you need any programming done, feel free to HMU. I have a lot of free time currently.
 

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@rockyola do you have 2013 wiring diagrams? I need brake and clutch switch for manual. Also ecu pinout and ima wiring. So prety much all of it.

@da-coder do you know arduino? I have 2 projects thst need coding.
I've dabbled. But I am by no means an expert. I do like programming in ARM assembly though.
The Arduino studio, iirc, is C.
 

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@PeterPerkins I am of the opinion that we just swap the entirety of the battery pack / inverter unit.
That way, we've only got things like current, voltage, and position sensor data to worry about.

Also the prices of just a used inverter is outrageous. Could buy a battery pack / PCU unit entirely instead.
They both are listed for around $500 USD. Not sure if this includes the inverter on the battery packs.
Examples: 2018-2020 HONDA ACCORD Battery hybrid battery OEM | eBay & 06-08 HONDA CIVIC HYBRID INVERTER IMA COMPUTER BATTERY CHARGER OEM DC DC | eBay
Prices seem to be all over the place. Guessing it depends on how much life is left on battery.

I spent most of today researching inverters for different Honda models and it seems there are two types: Mitsubishi and Keihin. I believe the use of Mitsubishi is part of their ongoing partnership with GM for electrification?
Ours seems to be Keihin. I think a good place to start is any of the newer models that use this same manufacturer.

I wasn't able to really verify this so disregard.

Seems a good way to find the voltages of the battery packs is this sticker I see on almost all Honda packs.
This is for a 2018 Accord Hybrid:
Rectangle Font Automotive exterior Signage Event


And this is for a 2014 Accord Hybrid:
Font Auto part Rectangle Automotive exterior Event


Here in the states we have the Acura RLX which appears to also be a 260V battery.
Usually they get the more powerful drivetrains.
The CR-V appears to be a 260V battery as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The FSM Link for the CR-Z is useful. Thanks

In these newer higher voltage (260V) packs the inverter is up on the engine asfaik.

In the couple of CR-V ones I have disassembled here in UK the battery unit only contains the cells, battery management, contactors/fuses and dc-dc module etc.

I agree getting a complete unit might be best for most people but I have tons of spares/batteries here so don't need all the bits for a prototype test bed asfaik.
 

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In these newer higher voltage (260V) packs the inverter is up on the engine asfaik.
In the couple of CR-V ones I have disassembled here in UK the battery unit only contains the cells, battery management, contactors/fuses and dc-dc module etc.
Update: I was a doofus and clicked on ILX instead of RLX...

The first Honda here in the us with the hybrid SH-AWD system was the 2014 RLX.
The sport hybrid is a DCT (stator in transmission) instead of the newer E-CVTs.
I suspect it's the same rotor / stator just put in the transmission instead.
They list it at 35kW.
Product Black Font Machine Auto part


The inverter is packaged like the nu-NSX, in the tunnel. It needs liquid cooling.
I couldn't find any pictures or more details about the PDU.
 

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We have posted these links for the FSM for free, many times they are really useful for those of us with the newer cars where the printed manuals are not available.



I've dabbled. But I am by no means an expert. I do like programming in ARM assembly though.
The Arduino studio, iirc, is C.
 

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18 coils just like ours.

The "stator resolver" (position sensor) for the 2014 RLX is 1A810-5P8-004.
Which looks like this:
Automotive tire Bicycle part Rim Font Gas

Automotive lighting Bumper Gadget Rectangle Automotive exterior


Aside from the mounting portion, it looks similar and uses the same plug as ours.
I think our position sensors are just three coils (hence 6 pin plug).
Automotive lighting Gas Jewellery Electric blue Gadget

Watch Carbon Composite material Metal Circle


I think Acura service data would be the best way to find if the pinouts for the front inverter, within the PDU, are similar to ours.
 

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Hey there Peter this might not be the right spot, but someone contacted me on Facebook asking questions about modifying the firmware for the CRZs we have a member near you that works on the CRZs as well, he wanted me to reach out to you and have a chat if there is a way for us to talk in a more real time type setting.
We do have a bit of the IMA tables defined already in the software
Colorfulness Computer Font Screenshot Technology
 

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Hey there Peter this might not be the right spot, but someone contacted me on Facebook asking questions about modifying the firmware for the CRZs we have a member near you that works on the CRZs as well, he wanted me to reach out to you and have a chat if there is a way for us to talk in a more real time type setting.
We do have a bit of the IMA tables defined already in the software
Any chance you might add custom CAN bus features? Something to run an expansion board for the modern K and J series that are fully CAN and have no additional IO available onboard?

Boost controllers, traction control, ethenol content sensors, signal generators for non CAN instrument clusters, are all things that come to mind. I have asked Hondata and Ktuner and neither wanted anything to do with that.

Or maybe the ability to tweak the CAN messages to match an engine swap to a chassis.

I do this for my swaps and Arduino as a go between but it would be so much better if it could be done in the PCM.
 

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@ryanthegreat1 thank you for pointing me this direction with @HondaTuningSuite.
I really hope with some of the very smart people we have on this group we can get the mcm programable as well. I will do my best to get these guys what they need hardware wise such as mcm's, harnesses. Cluster. Ecu, ect. But to anyone else reading this. This is epic a company that wants to mess with the ima. Hondata and k tuner have lost my business.
And @PeterPerkins this is what i was sending you info about yesterday.

@HondaTuningSuite the things we discussed will greatly help this group. The members doing the fit cam and intake swap would really need the ge8 fit tune put into the crz ecu with vtec crossover point changed. Stock fit injectors or the accord k series injectors. 06 s2000 360cc? Injectors are direct drop in as well with no harness modifications.

Like ryanthegreat mentioned if possible the ability to run say the oem honda ntk 5 wire wideband with a circuit to control the heater, ability to run the oem honda electronic wastegate , and few other additional can bus or analog inputs_outputs.

Not sure how others on this group would ferl about this but id be ok with a donation to fund this and push it along.
 

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Any chance you might add custom CAN bus features? Something to run an expansion board for the modern K and J series that are fully CAN and have no additional IO available onboard?

Boost controllers, traction control, ethenol content sensors, signal generators for non CAN instrument clusters, are all things that come to mind. I have asked Hondata and Ktuner and neither wanted anything to do with that.

Or maybe the ability to tweak the CAN messages to match an engine swap to a chassis.

I do this for my swaps and Arduino as a go between but it would be so much better if it could be done in the PCM.
Well you can kind of cheat with traction control i believe, and use either VSA to some level if its built into the PCM already.
or simply a 2d or 3d lookup table of speed differences between the ABS sensors(Which the ecu can poll) and sensor from the transmission.
And then apply a ignition retard based on overspeed to control the amount or apply a rolling cut to keep power output down to keep it from spinning.

Boost control/flex fuel there are onboard devices you can use the inputs from, (EGR, PCV, 2nd O2 sensor, etc)
signal generators would probably be a fair bit harder, developing a standalone board that the factory ecu could use would be extremely hard, as we do have quite a bit of free space in most 1mb and 2mb roms, but its the way you have to generate your code for them makes that a lot more difficult, as each calibration id, would have to be modified for it.

Also it really depends on what you want changed in the canbus messages, a lot of them can be modified without a whole lot of effort.
HDS looks up what engine is available based on vinnumber, then calls ReadByIdentifier with the custom packet codes 0x2610-2615 and a couple others
that dumps out a stream (each packet being 57 bytes long) and those are the values that get looked up in HDS. So you can't really change it to say "this is a CRZ with a k24"
But I could be misunderstanding what your end goal there is. So please elaborate on it so I don't feel dumb :)


@ryanthegreat1 thank you for pointing me this direction with @HondaTuningSuite.
I really hope with some of the very smart people we have on this group we can get the mcm programable as well. I will do my best to get these guys what they need hardware wise such as mcm's, harnesses. Cluster. Ecu, ect. But to anyone else reading this. This is epic a company that wants to mess with the ima. Hondata and k tuner have lost my business.
And @PeterPerkins this is what i was sending you info about yesterday.

@HondaTuningSuite the things we discussed will greatly help this group. The members doing the fit cam and intake swap would really need the ge8 fit tune put into the crz ecu with vtec crossover point changed. Stock fit injectors or the accord k series injectors. 06 s2000 360cc? Injectors are direct drop in as well with no harness modifications.

Like ryanthegreat mentioned if possible the ability to run say the oem honda ntk 5 wire wideband with a circuit to control the heater, ability to run the oem honda electronic wastegate , and few other additional can bus or analog inputs_outputs.

Not sure how others on this group would ferl about this but id be ok with a donation to fund this and push it along.
Like i had said in our dms on facebook, using the maps from the Fit are not really a huge deal, changing vtec is also simple.
if you are swapping in the Fit intake/cam then the maf curve you should just have to copy from the Fit rom to the CRZ rom.
The injector scaling as well, Honda factory injector setups are a bit strange, but just copying over the base pulsewidth tables,
the built in speed density tables(Which are extremely small and limited 6x3), and the cranking/wallwetting stuff should be relatively easy to move those injectors over as well.

Not sure if the Fit has IMRC but if it does, thats where the difficulty would come from as i dont believe(but not sure) the CRZ has IMRC.

I want to dig a lot more into what can and can't be done with the CRZ. If honda can update the MCM then i can as well, time is my only limiting factor, but i need to get a full dump from the uC of the MCM. So that will be my first goal. Full dump of the MCM, Do some reverse engineering finding out limits, if there are any tables, etc.
We have done quite a bit of work on the PCM side, so we have a lot of the IMA tables defined and mapped in HTS already, which handles things like The Assist/regen Request

If someone wants to donate a CRZ to the cause i wouldn't say no lol.
Unfortunately HTS doesn't really make the kind of money I wish it did to be able to just go grab a new platform for developing on
We are relatively new to the game, and we are trying to contend with the big hitters, so we have like a 0.00001% market share compared to anyone else.

But i will do what i can with bench setups its pretty much how i have gotten by so far. :)
 
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