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Sounds to me like the original repair was not done completely and the second failure was related to the first repair but at this point we will never know. All you know at this point is the second repair appears to not have been done correctly or they used the wrong parts from who knows what supplier.

My father many years ago had an issue and he thought it was the transmission. Car was taken to an AAMCO where transmission was supposedly repaired. All they did was paint the transmission green ( my father checked the serial numbers and recognized certain scratches etc on the transmission case) and it turned out the real issue was an engine mount failed which his trusted mechanic fixed. There were investigations done and my Dad got some of the money back but from that point forward I am leery of chain transmission shops. When my own transmission failed on my Grand Prix I took the car to a shop I trusted with their own transmission guy who hand rebuilt the transmission for me but that was an exceptional situation. On the transmission rebuild they provided me a rental from their own fleet and when the repair took longer than they expected( the transmission specialist had a medical issue and they only had the one guy that did transmissions) they made the cost for the rental go away. A very honest shop. To this day if I ever hear of anyone or need them myself I refer anyone to their shop no matter what brand car they drive. Shop used to be a GM dealership but they gave up the franchise and now just sells used cars and trailers. They also have a body shop.

That shop many times would not do work I requested as they said it was not needed and would install parts I sourced for labor costs only. They are very honest and they do great work at a great price!

Yep, I thought about the shifter problem not being more widespread or the subject of a recall. My feeling was with a rebuild, I would have some local accountability with regards to the person that did the actual work.
Maybe I got a transmission that was made on a bad day on the assembly line aka a Monday morning product. This is the first time I've had 2 sudden transmission failures.

Thanks for the warning about the tires. The dealer service rep did let know me it was time to replace the tires when I brought it in for the regen problem.
 

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Discussion Starter #102
I used to go to a mechanic only a couple miles away who did excellent work on Hondas. He unfortunately passed away so I have to again search for another trustworthy mechanic or shop.
 

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There is an interlock solenoid to stop you engaging reverse if the vehicle is moving. If it fails you cannot engage reverse - it physically blocks the movement of the gearlever from selecting reverse gear. So, was it this or the actual gearbox...?
Sorry to throw a spanner in the works again.
 

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Discussion Starter #104 (Edited)
The dealer service rep said it was the solenoid. At the time, I didn't mentally connect a solenoid to the reverse gear lockout, so I was wondering what he was on about. Now that you explained it using more words than he did, it makes perfect sense.

I dropped off the car at the repair shop this morning, who will then drop it off at the rebuild shop. The rebuild shop will check for CEL and do a test drive. I repeated my "~75 MPH now vs. ~70 MPH then" observations but I got the feeling that was disregarded (the service manager didn't write it down). I casually remarked that it would be kind of odd if the transmission was causing the regen problem since it's just a big piece of metal with small spinning pieces of metal inside. The service manager said that was incorrect, the transmission has 2 sensors, RPM and speed.

I just checked for fun and I see parts for the CR-Z called "transmission pickup speed sensor". Is this the VSS, or is it another speed sensor?
I see that this sensor is in the clutch release assembly so technically it's not attached directly to the transmission.
 

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There hasn't been and won't be a CEL and they will most likely do nothing. I hope I am wrong.:(

The dealer service rep said it was the solenoid. At the time, I didn't mentally connect a solenoid to the reverse gear lockout, so I was wondering what he was on about. Now that you explained it using more words than he did, it makes perfect sense.

I dropped off the car at the repair shop this morning, who will then drop it off at the rebuild shop. The rebuild shop will check for CEL and do a test drive. I repeated my "~75 MPH now vs. ~70 MPH then" observations but I got the feeling that was disregarded (the service manager didn't write it down). I casually remarked that it would be kind of odd if the transmission was causing the regen problem since it's just a big piece of metal with small spinning pieces of metal inside. The service manager said that was incorrect, the transmission has 2 sensors, RPM and speed.

I just checked for fun and I see parts for the CR-Z called "transmission pickup speed sensor". Is this the VSS, or is it another speed sensor?
I see that this sensor is in the clutch release assembly so technically it's not attached directly to the transmission.
 

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" There hasn't been and won't be a CEL and they will most likely do nothing. I hope I am wrong"
Probably, in which case I would find another Honda garage and ask them to do a full diagnostics of ALL related ecus - MCM, Engine and ABS/VSA, plus run actuator and sensor tests (brake/clutch switches etc) Then also reset the MCM ecu and maybe update it if necessary.
They should do all the above when trying to find the regen charging problem, regardless of the gearing.
(don't mention this to them so it won't cloud their diagnosis)

As regards the reverse lockout solenoid. If is working, you cannot move the gear stick past the 5/6th plane at over about 10mph.
If it wasn't the solenoid, you'd be able to move the gear stick into the reverse plane and then back to engage reverse.
If you get a grating of gears, then maybe the clutch is not disengaging fully, as there is no syncromesh in reverse, which is why sometimes it won't go into gear so you have to release the clutch and try again.

In the meantime, there are instructions in the workshop manual to rev the engine to 4000rpm for a few seconds after starting for the IMA to reset the state of charge indicator, so try this, and then go on a long drive at a steady speed without using the IMA where possible to see if the charge level reaches max.

If the 12 V battery is discharged, its cables have been
disconnected, or the MCM (Motor Control Module)
has been reset, the IMA battery level indicator does
not display the state-of-charge (SOC) when the engine
is first started. To display the level in the indicator,
start the engine, and hold the engine speed between
3,500 and 4,000 rpm without load (in N (CVT
model)) or (in neutral (M/T model) until the level in the
indicator is half full.
 

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No reason to do the resets. We all know at this point it was a gearing change that makes the gearing not match the ECU so the ECU is not expecting something it needs in order to activate the regeneration during braking. The key is there has been no lights or error messages. It is a little off not massively off or a failure.

It is at a transmission shop they know nothing about anything other than the transmission. They are now in a non revenue producing situation where they have been asked by the first shop to make it right. Since it is taking up a bay they will do the bare minimum to prove their preconceived ideas and do nothing other than get it out of their shop. They will not know anything or care about the IMA system and regenerative braking. Most shops are not very knowledgeable and will say anything to make the customer go away if the work is too complicated and will cost too much in time to diagnose.They also have no incentive to be proven they did something wrong especially if they are going to not get paid again and lose money. They are a business not a charity. See what this owner has been told by the shop the vehicle was brought to and what information he got back from the shop that did the work. He is in a bad situation and to make it right he needs to find the right kind of shop that cares and can put the car back to specifications or live with the no regeneration. And at what cost?

Again we have beat this horse over and over again. The shops will do what they are going to do and the OP has to decide how far down this rabbit hole he is willing to go and how much he is willing to spend unless we as a forum take up a collection for him to get a new OEM transmission. Everything in his car is working except regeneration. The only change found by indirect observation is the gearing. FARMERGILES you keep going over and over looking for something else and suggesting resets and diagnosis that will find nothing and cost him lots of shop time and money. Are you going to pay for all of that? I doubt it.

The hardest part is finding a caring, willing good shop with the skills required to diagnose and repair at a reasonable cost.

We should stop this thread and wait for the OP to make his decision after he hears back from the the shops. Ultimately it is his money, his car and his decision.

Let it be. We have given as much information(right ,wrong or pure speculation) as we can to help him and at this point it is his decision on how to proceed from here.

" There hasn't been and won't be a CEL and they will most likely do nothing. I hope I am wrong"
Probably, in which case I would find another Honda garage and ask them to do a full diagnostics of ALL related ecus - MCM, Engine and ABS/VSA, plus run actuator and sensor tests (brake/clutch switches etc) Then also reset the MCM ecu and maybe update it if necessary.
They should do all the above when trying to find the regen charging problem, regardless of the gearing.
(don't mention this to them so it won't cloud their diagnosis)

As regards the reverse lockout solenoid. If is working, you cannot move the gear stick past the 5/6th plane at over about 10mph.
If it wasn't the solenoid, you'd be able to move the gear stick into the reverse plane and then back to engage reverse.
If you get a grating of gears, then maybe the clutch is not disengaging fully, as there is no syncromesh in reverse, which is why sometimes it won't go into gear so you have to release the clutch and try again.

In the meantime, there are instructions in the workshop manual to rev the engine to 4000rpm for a few seconds after starting for the IMA to reset the state of charge indicator, so try this, and then go on a long drive at a steady speed without using the IMA where possible to see if the charge level reaches max.

If the 12 V battery is discharged, its cables have been
disconnected, or the MCM (Motor Control Module)
has been reset, the IMA battery level indicator does
not display the state-of-charge (SOC) when the engine
is first started. To display the level in the indicator,
start the engine, and hold the engine speed between
3,500 and 4,000 rpm without load (in N (CVT
model)) or (in neutral (M/T model) until the level in the
indicator is half full.
 

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Discussion Starter #108
I'm waiting to hear back from the repair shop. I'm hoping it's "they didn't find anything wrong" so at most I pay for some time & labor and get my car back intact.
 

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Since warranty and it is not right there should be no charge in a perfect world and they replace the final drive. I just hope it comes back as is or fixed not worse. I truly feel for your situation.
 

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Discussion Starter #110
The repair shop called and said the transmission shop found no problems. A test drive showed the RPMs falling into normal expected ranges at 75 MPH and at 70 MPH. I didn't have time to write down the RPM ranges but when I pickup my car, I can try to ask for those ranges. If the top and bottom of each range are different by 4.3% or more, then that would include the difference in the final drive gear ratios. If the transmission shop is using those RPM ranges to verify gear ratios, that would leave tearing down the transmission to physically check part numbers. I asked about that last Friday and the service manager said "that will cost money" in a discouraging tone.

The service manager said RPMs will vary with road conditions, elevation, the ECON/NORMAL/SPORT mode selection, etc. I can see all that being the case if my car had the CVT, but with the MT's fixed gear ratios, a given engine RPM and a given gear will result in a specific driveshaft RPM. The amount of energy needed to reach that specific RPM will vary under those different conditions, so how hard I have to push down on the accelerator pedal will definitely vary.
He also said the repair shop is not going to work on the regen problem and that is for the dealer to handle.

No matter. I'm picking up my car tomorrow morning and going to visit another, much closer repair shop that gets many good reviews on Yelp to see if they will check if the car has the proper final drive gear.
 

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Just out of curiosity, and because I don't remember reading it specifically, is the actual speed of the car off by 5mph at 3000 rpms, or is the speedometer just indicating 75 vs 70? Could be the difference between something mechanical and something sensor or electronic related.
 

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Discussion Starter #112
The speedometer display is showing 75 instead of 70. That's why I asked earlier if this part on the MT Clutch Release assembly is the Vehicle Speed Sensor, because a Google Search for that part number turns up sales offers calling it "Transmission Speed Sensor" and "Vehicle Speed Sensor". I'm wondering if that part could have been damaged during the repair work. But I also don't know if a faulty VSS is covered by the diagnostic test(s).
62464
 

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The speedometer display is showing 75 instead of 70. That's why I asked earlier if this part on the MT Clutch Release assembly is the Vehicle Speed Sensor, because a Google Search for that part number turns up sales offers calling it "Transmission Speed Sensor" and "Vehicle Speed Sensor". I'm wondering if that part could have been damaged during the repair work. But I also don't know if a faulty VSS is covered by the diagnostic test(s).
View attachment 62464
It would be a massive coincidence if it was damaged and was off by a few mph specifically.

I've had these go before, they work or don't work, throw a cel and limit your rpm.

Tou don't need to check all gear speed ranges. Final drive change changes max speed in all gears.

All you need to do is check the speed diff in 6th as we already know that all gears are them same between the facelift and pre-facelift models.

I was checking mine yesterday on the freeway. 75 mph is 3k rpm.
70 is about 2750 ish.

If you wanted to be bold and go back to the repair shop with further proof go upto 90 and try get a picture.

I'd be happy to do the same tonight. At 90 the speed diff will be more noticeable.

Othet than that I'd be at the point of threatening legal action and demanding receipts/parts lists off them.
 

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So yours, mine and now the OPs all read 75 at 3000rpm. Anyone else with a facelifted manual car whose speedo reads different to this at 3000rpm, please reply.
According to the W manual, the transmission speed sensor picks up the rpm of the countershaft so this won't have changed as the gear ratios are the same.
 

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Discussion Starter #115
The repair shop's defense would be that the transmission shop said the current RPMs are within the expected ranges. So it's my word against the transmission shop's word. I have a gear ratio-RPM-speed calculator and the shop has their expected RPMs pulled from tables/charts/graphs/calculator and they do this for a living. So it would probably take a lawsuit to subpoena the transmission shop's paperwork. I'd rather spend the money on a different shop where I can engage in an actual 2-way conversation with the service rep/manager.
 

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Whilst you may be right, I still don't see why a few percent difference would stop the IMA from invoking regen charging when you lift off the gas, or apply the brakes, and yet there would be no fault code anywhere. (if there isn't one logged somewhere)?
I don't think this would cause a fault code. Possibly the car expects to see one engine RPM at a certain speed, but sees something else, thus refusing to use full regen braking. Does the manual CR-Z have a way to detect if the clutch is being depressed? if not, then the different final drive could cause the ECU to constantly think the clutch is being depressed, thus stopping it from using full regen.
 

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Yes, there is a clutch switch (actually there are 3 to detect 3 positions of the pedal) and yes, if you depress the clutch, the regen charging stops otherwise the load on the engine could cause it to stall.
This is why I suggested an actuator test during the diagnostics and also pickup any fault codes in the MCM. (if the diagnostics are not Honda HDS or equivalent they won't be able to read the MCM for codes)
 

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There is definitely a sensor and/or clutch switch. Car won't start without it being pushed in.
Yeah, most if not all cars in the U.S have that, but it usually doesn't tell the ECU if the clutch is depressed, it just prevents power from flowing to the starter motor. But now that I think about it, the CR-Z doesn't have a traditional setup for the starter motor. The ECU has to know if the clutch is depressed because the IMA motor is also the starter.

actually there are 3 to detect 3 positions of the pedal
Interesting. I guess they detect engaged, disengaged, and in between?

Best bet is to take it to someone who knows the car, like a dealer.
 

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i also found this in the 2011/12 workshop manual:

IMA Motor Rotor Position Calibration . .
Do the IMA motor rotor position calibration whenever
any of these actions are done:

• The MCM is replaced.
• The IMA m otor rotor position sensor is replaced or
removed during service.
• The IMA m otor is replaced or removed during service.
• The engine assembly is replaced or removed during
service.
® The transmission is replaced or removed during
service.


So have the shop do this first. Could the fix be this simple.....?
 
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