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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
P0B3B Battery Voltage Sensor Internal Circuit Error.

There are now several examples on this forum and the FB groups of Lithium cars suffering from fatal BMS board failures which render the IMA completely inoperative.
Owners are then left struggling trying to obtain expensive spares parts for these rarer Lithium cars and then swapping them out which is fairly tricky and involves removing the IMA pack etc.

There are 4x 10 cell BMS boards in the Lithium IMA pack labelled A,B,C,D each with a unique CAN $ID.

Honda Part numbers. (Note strange number order, more on that later)

A
$204 = 1K440-RW0-013 (3812102-500)
B $201 = 1K410-RW0-013 (3812102-470)
C $202 = 1K420-RW0-013 (3812102-480)
D $203 = 1K430-RW0-013 (3812102-490)

In two recent cases the code reader HDS or a decent expensive equivalent has identified a failed D board which when replaced did not correct the issue.
Only replacement of the A board fixed the issue. So why is this?

Possibly......
1) Both boards had failed but only D was identified as faulty by the HDS for some reason.
2) Only the A board had failed but it was miss-identified by the software as the D board.

The fact the HDS and other codes readers are misidentifying the board suggest Honda's own ID OBDII DTC database is in error.
The other code reader manufacturers also use the same database licensed from Honda, so the fact they are wrong as well is understandable.

So if we get an HDS D board indicated failure it seems likely an A board might actually be required.

So this leaves us with a problem of finding spare BMS boards as they have to be replaced like for like (A for an A etc)
Once the available stock of breakers yard A boards is used up people are stuck.

I have checked with Honda UK today and the BMS boards are classed as part of the IMA battery and are not available separately.
New IMA battery = £6500 UK or $8500 LOL.....

Now I did do quite a bit of work during 2019 on the CAN ID's of the 4 BMS boards which range from $201-204

There are two physical types of PCB A & B inside the 4 BMS units (A,B,C,D) which have different battery tap connector pinouts.
So we have two of each PCB A & B type in our four board total.

Looking very carefully at a full set of 4 boards (ID 201, 202, 203,204) the only differences in the components on the pcbs are in the small areas below.

Green Circuit component Font Electronic component Electronic engineering



Each of the 4 boards has a unique arrangement of 103 (10k) resistors in the pictured areas which generates the CAN ID.

Ok it's actually four x 10k possible resistors pulling 2 inputs high or low (0-5V) to give 2 bits and four possible ID configurations.
Only two resistors out of the possible four are populated on any board.

The resistor config is noted by the onboard cpu at first power on and then the board has that ID fixed.

Product Green Font Circuit component Audio equipment


I was able to change the ID of a test board using the above idea and soldering/desoldering these resistors.

In the pic above the truth table for these two points A + B is as follows. High being 5V and Low being GND.

A ID $204 [A = High B = Low] (PCB Type B)
B ID $201 [A = Low B = Low] (PCB Type A)

C ID $202[ A = Low B = High] (PCB Type B)
D ID $203 [A = High B = High] (PCB Type A)

Note the weird ordering and you can see how the HDS software might be logically expecting ID$204 to be D but it is in fact A :cry:

Extrapolating this further we might expect the HDS software to believe that....

$ID201 is A but it is in fact B
$ID202 is B but it is in fact C
$ID203 is C but it is in fact D
$ID204 is D but it is in fact A

If this theory holds true the software will miss identify the faulty board in every case!!!!
i.e. If it identifies board C as faulty we know it is board D!!!

So the bottom line in all this is we can change the CAN ID of boards by swapping resistors if we run out of any particular one..

Run out of A boards and we can change a C board (same PCB type) to the CAN ID we need $202 to $204 and vice versa . (y)
* You cannot change an A or a C to a B or a D and vice versa, as they are different PCB A/B connector layouts. *

A can become C and C can become A.
B can become D and D can become B.


We basically potentially doubled our supply of spare boards. (Note I have not actually tried a modified board in the car, but don't see why it shouldn't work.)

I will edit/refine this post and add more info as I dig it out and the member in Germany with the problem currently updates us with the result.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
I have extensively edited the first post to include more details.

The pics below show the resistor configurations on the four boards for the CAN ID's.

Bumper Bicycle part Automotive exterior Automotive tire Auto part



Board A ID $204 (Can become C ID $202)
Circuit component Green Passive circuit component Hardware programmer Electronic engineering



Board B ID $201 (Can become D ID $203)
Green Circuit component Electronic component Font Hardware programmer


Board C ID $202 (Can become A ID $204)
Circuit component Electronic engineering Hardware programmer Font Electronic component


Board D ID $203 (Can become B ID $201)
Circuit component Green Hardware programmer Electronic component Electronic engineering


Example. For board C to become A you would move a single 10k resistor (the one marked '103' in the white box on the right) on board C to match board A above.


* Warning. (I'm not talking about board ID in the below here) *
Do not try and use a connector layout PCB A in a PCB B position or you will let out the expensive magic smoke!


I note there are two boards available on e-bay at the moment from the same US vendor, but you would have to confirm with a photo of the part that it was the one you wanted.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Looking at some CAN data from a known good A board and a suspect A board (One that was replaced in the car and fixed the issue).

I can't see any obvious issues. :unsure:

Code:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
id204good - 11:09:34 07/04/2022 - Hexadecimal
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

TYPE  ___TIME____  ___ID____  D1   D2   D3   D4   D5   D6   D7   D8

RD11  2.7764       204        99   69   97   99   59   96   00   02
RD11  2.7967       204        99   69   96   99   79   97   01   5A
RD11  2.8167       204        99   79   97   00   00   00   00   A6

RD11  2.8367       204        99   69   97   99   59   96   00   3F
RD11  2.8571       204        99   69   96   99   79   97   01   4B
RD11  2.8767       204        99   79   97   00   00   00   00   97

RD11  2.8967       204        99   69   97   99   59   96   00   20
RD11  2.9167       204        99   69   96   99   79   96   01   79
RD11  2.9367       204        99   79   97   00   00   00   00   88

RD11  2.9567       204        99   79   97   99   59   96   00   10
RD11  2.9767       204        99   69   96   99   79   96   01   6A
RD11  2.9971       204        99   79   97   00   00   00   00   B5

RD11  3.0167       204        99   79   97   99   59   96   00   01
RD11  3.0367       204        99   69   96   99   79   96   01   5B
RD11  3.0571       204        99   79   97   00   00   00   00   A6
RD11  3.0767       204        99   79   97   99   59   96   00   3E
RD11  3.0971       204        99   69   96   99   79   96   01   4C
RD11  3.1172       204        99   79   97   00   00   00   00   97
RD11  3.1367       204        99   79   97   99   59   96   00   2F
RD11  3.1571       204        99   69   96   99   79   96   01   79
RD11  3.1770       204        99   79   97   00   00   00   00   88
RD11  3.1972       204        99   79   97   99   59   96   00   10
RD11  3.2167       204        99   69   96   99   79   96   01   6A
RD11  3.2371       204        99   79   97   00   00   00   00   B5

Code:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
id204bad - 10:50:16 07/04/2022 - Hexadecimal
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

TYPE  ___TIME____  ___ID____  D1   D2   D3   D4   D5   D6   D7   D8


RD11  2.6976       204        99   69   96   99   49   95   00   05
RD11  2.7179       204        99   69   96   99   79   96   01   5B
RD11  2.7379       204        99   79   96   00   00   00   00   A7

RD11  2.7579       204        99   69   96   99   49   95   00   32
RD11  2.7783       204        99   69   96   99   79   96   01   4C
RD11  2.7978       204        99   79   96   00   00   00   00   98

RD11  2.8179       204        99   69   96   99   49   96   00   22
RD11  2.8378       204        99   69   96   99   69   96   01   7A
RD11  2.8579       204        99   79   96   00   00   00   00   89

RD11  2.8778       204        99   69   96   99   49   96   00   13
RD11  2.8978       204        99   69   96   99   69   96   01   6B
RD11  2.9183       204        99   79   96   00   00   00   00   B6

RD11  2.9379       204        99   69   96   99   49   95   00   05
RD11  2.9579       204        99   69   96   99   69   96   01   5C
RD11  2.9783       204        99   79   96   00   00   00   00   A7
RD11  2.9979       204        99   69   96   99   49   96   00   31
RD11  3.0183       204        99   69   96   99   69   96   01   4D
RD11  3.0383       204        99   79   96   00   00   00   00   98
RD11  3.0579       204        99   69   96   99   49   95   00   23
RD11  3.0783       204        99   69   96   99   69   96   01   7A
RD11  3.0981       204        99   79   96   00   00   00   00   89
RD11  3.1183       204        99   69   96   99   49   95   00   14
RD11  3.1378       204        99   69   96   99   69   96   01   6B
RD11  3.1583       204        99   79   96   00   00   00   00   B6
RD11  3.1779       204        99   69   96   99   49   96   00   04
RD11  3.1983       204        99   69   96   99   69   96   01   5C
RD11  3.2179       204        99   79   96   00   00   00   00   A7
RD11  3.2383       204        99   69   96   99   49   95   00   32
RD11  3.2579       204        99   69   96   99   69   96   01   4D
RD11  3.2783       204        99   79   96   00   00   00   00   98
RD11  3.2979       204        99   69   96   99   49   95   00   23
RD11  3.3183       204        99   69   96   99   69   96   01   7A
RD11  3.3383       204        99   79   97   00   00   00   00   88
RD11  3.3579       204        99   69   96   99   49   95   00   14
RD11  3.3779       204        99   69   96   99   69   96   01   6B
RD11  3.3978       204        99   79   96   00   00   00   00   B6
RD11  3.4183       204        99   69   96   99   49   95   00   05
RD11  3.4378       204        99   69   96   99   69   96   01   5C
RD11  3.4583       204        99   79   96   00   00   00   00   A7
RD11  3.4783       204        99   69   96   99   49   96   00   31
RD11  3.4981       204        99   69   96   99   69   96   01   4D
RD11  3.5183       204        99   79   96   00   00   00   00   98

Both boards are transmitting the right CAN ID and data that appears to be identical bar slight voltage sensing variations between the two boards.

This first test is without the benefit of the MCM sending them periodic commands so perhaps the bad board simply fails to respond.
 

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If this theory holds true the software will miss identify the faulty board in every case!!!!
i.e. If it identifies board C as faulty we know it is board D!!!
ah, that makes alot of sense.. Probably it could be the reason why my C board error did not get fixed by replacing C board..
Thank you for all this information @PeterPerkins . Im waiting for My clone HDS to arrive then I will look deeper into this direction too.


Do not try and use a connector layout PCB A in a PCB B position or you might let out the magic smoke!
That is true and I learned it the hard way 😔. There was no data available online regarding this error except for what Peter Wrote, and a local workshop suggested my Cell Blocks could be faulty too. So Curious Me, wanting to rule out complete Cell Blocks as a potential problem, Succumbed to my curiosity and changed the positions of the full module Block that are behind C and B Boards with each other without noticing that there must be a reason why the connectors going into the boards on both the modules are different in color (light Brown and grey).

(I just wanted to see if I can move the error to some other board by changing the position of the modules configuration within the pack) but as soon as I connected the daisy chain connectors at the bottom, that 'Magic Smoke' started coming out of both C and B board and by the time I was able to disconnect the connectors, both the boards were burned already 😔. had to replace both of them with the spare civic's BMS Boards now and C board error is still there. So what I learn from all this is "Don't ever Try to change the positions of the boards or the Module Blocks even, it will burn the ICs on both the boards and render the already rare boards completely useless".
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
That was a shame as moving the cell blocks or the BMS boards like that would not have moved this particular fault anyway as you hoped. :confused:
The BMS boards are identified on the BUS by the CAN ID not the physical position on the end of the pack.
The CAN parallel wiring is the same for all. (Not the cell connector wiring plugs though as you found out!) 🔥

Even if you had swapped compatible board A with C or D with B the HDS would have still given the same fault/board ID.

Sounds like you need a D board and luck that your 'experimental swap' has not damaged anything else.
 

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That was a shame and a waste as moving them like that would not have moved the fault anyway as you hoped. :confused:
The BMS boards are identified on the BUS by the CAN ID not there physical position on the end of the pack.
The CAN wiring is the same for all. (Not the cell connector wiring plugs though as you found out!) 🔥
Yeah :( im aware of it now. Im fairly new to all of this and have no prior experience in these electrical issues related to cars, let alone this Honda's IMA technology. this is the first time i am facing Such a big issue in this car since I got it 4 years ago, So mostly Im just experimenting with the stuff as I have no other choice (all the workshops here suggested me to change the full battery pack and don't understand what the actual problem is)


Sounds like you need a D board and luck that your 'experimental swap' has not damaged anything else.
Apparently it did not damage anything else (Hopefully) as all the other Data on the HDS were same as before once i put everything in the right place. i have now ordered my own HDS to look further in detail. hoping for the best.
 

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@Uzair Mir For your suspected wrongly indicated C board fault do do you have a spare D board or a B board you can reconfigure by moving the CAN ID resistor to be a D?
i returned the A and D Board. I really wanted to test this B board theory but unfortunately I am already using that spare B board as my own B board got burnt in my stupid experiment. I can get that D board back though
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
So if we look at the other thread on this problem we can see the HDS did miss-identify the faulty board.. :rolleyes:

That is the second time it has done that to my knowledge with these same faults on different cars.

 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
So working on this today. I can confirm the HDS database or the physical labelling of the BMS boards is borked.

Board labeled A measures Cells 31-40 in the data list and if removed the HDS says board D fail!!
Board labeled B measures Cells 1-10 in the data list and if removed the HDS says board A fail!!
Board labeled C measures Cells 11-20 in the data list and if removed the HDS says board B fail!!
Board labeled D measures Cells 21-30 in the data list and if removed the HDS says board C fail!!

I also found the location for this info in the HDS data so I can correct it and display the true information for my OBDIIC&C display.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
More fault finding..


I can confirm the two failed boards I have are both A boards.

One has cell voltage readings that are ~100mv higher than the other three boards.

IMA Battery Cell Voltage 31 ............... 3669.00 mV
IMA Battery Cell Voltage 32 ................ 3730.60 mV
IMA Battery Cell Voltage 33 ................. 3679.60 mV
IMA Battery Cell Voltage 34 ............... 3703.60 mV
IMA Battery Cell Voltage 35 ................ 3681.00 mV
IMA Battery Cell Voltage 36 ................ 3721.60 mV
IMA Battery Cell Voltage 37 ................ 3667.60 mV
IMA Battery Cell Voltage 38 ................ 3735.00 mV
IMA Battery Cell Voltage 39 ................ 3687.00 mV
IMA Battery Cell Voltage 40 ................ 3745.60 mV

Battery Cell Voltage Sensor A Failure Information .......................... 00000000
Battery Cell Voltage Sensor B Failure Information .......................... 00000000
Battery Cell Voltage Sensor C Failure Information ......................... 00000000
Battery Cell Voltage Sensor D Failure Information ......................... 00110001 (Misidentified by the HDS)

Note also the big discrepancy between Highest and lowest!

The other has readings that are again 50mV higher than the other three boards.

IMA Battery Cell Voltage 31................ 3690.00 mV
IMA Battery Cell Voltage 32 ............... 3690.00 mV
IMA Battery Cell Voltage 33................ 3687.00 mV
IMA Battery Cell Voltage 34 ............... 3688.60 mV
IMA Battery Cell Voltage 35................ 3690.00 mV
IMA Battery Cell Voltage 36 ............... 3690.00 mV
IMA Battery Cell Voltage 37 ............... 3690.00 mV
IMA Battery Cell Voltage 38................ 3690.00 mV
IMA Battery Cell Voltage 39................ 3691.60 mV
IMA Battery Cell Voltage 40................ 3691.60 mV

Battery Cell Voltage Sensor A Failure Information.. ............. 00000000
Battery Cell Voltage Sensor B Failure Information ............ 00000000
Battery Cell Voltage Sensor C Failure Information ............. 00000000
Battery Cell Voltage Sensor D Failure Information .............. 00110001 (Misidentified by the HDS)

Note same fail code in each case.

The suspect D board was fine and had been misidentified by the HDS. (It was A that was faulty)
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
Some good news. :)

I was able to reconfigure my spare C board (change the CAN address) by moving a tiny SMD resistor
as detailed earlier in this thread, so it can and did work in place of a failed A one. (y)

I notice the Civic BMS board cases are a very slightly different size compared to the CR-Z ones.
They won't quite bolt onto the CR-Z battery pack. The bolt holes are 2-3 mm out.
However the PCB inside is the same in both.
If you were using a Civic BMS board in a CR-Z you would simply have to swap the PCB over into the bad CR-Z board case and vice versa.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Just a note on board swapping that has come up today.

Strangely BMS board D has the IMA CAN BUS termination resistors (~120R) (I would have expected these to be inside the MCM/BCM) oh well..
If you intend swapping board D with B or vice versa you would also have to modify these resistors.

If you wanted a B and had a D. I would just remove them.
If you wanted a D and had a B. I would add some resistors in parallel to the ones on the board to bring the value down from 2.4K to 120R.

I'll post pics later.
 
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