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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So Hyundai shows the production Veloster and I for one am happy that I did not consider waiting to see it before buying my CRZ.

But to me the biggest news of the Detroit auto show was Toyota's announcement that the Prius is now going to be a whole line of cars. They showed a larger, production ready, v model and showed a concept of a smaller model c that they say we will see in production trim in 2012. The c is supposed to be the least expensive Prius hybrid and is supposed to be the most fuel efficient.

For a moment think about if this means they intend to produce a $20-23k, 55 mpg, hybrid. Even lacking the style offered by the CRZ, such a car would truly render the "Hybrid" part of the CRZ to be an embarrassment. Even the upcoming hybrid Fit may seem lacking if Toyota can bring to market a $20k, 55 mpg machine.

I can hear the criticism now, that the Prius is ugly or boring, but there are an awful lot of people who see driving a hybrid as meaning they can brag about their fuel economy and a $20k 50+mpg car is going to be a hit and set a new benchmark.
 

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I didn't buy my CRZ for fuel economy. You are not making the correct comparison.

I'd be interested to see what the CRZ drivetrain is capable of economy wise with some tweaks, but it's becoming clearer that fast and economy are not very compatible - and I'm not prepared to compromise on performance.
 

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If they keep it as a 5-door hatch as depicted in the concept, I doubt if I'll ever be interested. Appearance-wise it reminds me of the Toyota Matrix with an FT-86 influenced nose and hints of Scirocco.

 

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that still looks way better than the hyundai.
Looks like my wifes VW Gti but shorter.
I like 2 door hatches best though =)
Yes I had 3 crx.
However the Z has become my favorite with ease.
such a fun car =)
 

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"Even lacking the style offered by the CRZ, such a car would truly render the "Hybrid" part of the CRZ to be an embarrassment. Even the upcoming hybrid Fit may seem lacking if Toyota can bring to market a $20k, 55 mpg machine."

I don't agree. If fuel mileage was the ONLY draw to the CRZ then sure, it would kill the it. Fortunately, the looks and the fact it's NOT a Prius are major draws. Even if it did hurt the hybrid CR-Z sales, Honda would just come out with a full gas powered model with actual horsepower and crush sales.
 

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No doubt that Toyota has played second fiddle to Honda when it comes to sporty cars. But as a lover of small, fast sports cars, the third gen MR2 Spyder was a great handling machine. Only 2195 lbs and mid-engined, it gave up some in acceleration (0-60 6.8 sec.) but made up for it in the turns. Had it had ANY cargo capacity, it would have been far more popular in the U.S.
 

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so now that i had a chance to actually look at what Toyota is offering with the new Prius lineup... i have to say it's a very smart move to take the worlds best selling Hybrid and expand on that name "Prius" rather than just calling them Toyota "V-Hybrid" or "C-Hybrid"

i am very curious to see what the new 2012 Honda Civic Hybrid gets when the regular Civic already gets 40mpg PLUS "Eco-Assist" which will no doubt allow for much better real world mpg figures... the Hybrid Civic Hybrid should come close to, if not, surpass the 50mpg hwy mark... I'm sure it would be priced higher/around the Si model but that's still sub-$25k add an (outdated) navi and you're still under $27k for a loaded HCH3 that gets nearly identical (speculative) mileage as the current Prius... AND it's still using the "inferior" IMA, mild-hybrid, setup... I think Honda would do better to offer an Insight like the first one they offered, just to bring that title of "the most fe hybrid on the market" back to the Honda name brand...

so while the "Prius" is coming out with all these new concepts, i don't think the CR-Z is in any way threatened by these releases b/c they're different cars with different purposes...
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
so now that i had a chance to actually look at what Toyota is offering with the new Prius lineup... i have to say it's a very smart move to take the worlds best selling Hybrid and expand on that name "Prius" rather than just calling them Toyota "V-Hybrid" or "C-Hybrid"

i am very curious to see what the new 2012 Honda Civic Hybrid gets when the regular Civic already gets 40mpg PLUS "Eco-Assist" which will no doubt allow for much better real world mpg figures... the Hybrid Civic Hybrid should come close to, if not, surpass the 50mpg hwy mark... I'm sure it would be priced higher/around the Si model but that's still sub-$25k add an (outdated) navi and you're still under $27k for a loaded HCH3 that gets nearly identical (speculative) mileage as the current Prius... AND it's still using the "inferior" IMA, mild-hybrid, setup... I think Honda would do better to offer an Insight like the first one they offered, just to bring that title of "the most fe hybrid on the market" back to the Honda name brand...

so while the "Prius" is coming out with all these new concepts, i don't think the CR-Z is in any way threatened by these releases b/c they're different cars with different purposes...
They are different cars for different markets, but for good or bad, the Prius has defined in the marketplace what a "hybrid" is supposed to be. The biggest baggage that the CRZ carries is the word hybrid on it's hatch. As the Prius broadens it's appeal with both larger and smaller versions. And specifically if the smaller version is able to achieve even better fuel economy, the CRZ's hybrid baggage gets even heavier.

I think you might be too optimistic to believe that IMA will add as much as 25% better efficiency to an already very efficient car like the new civic. Based on my experience comparing my real world fuel efficiency between my CRZ and my Fit, I have concluded that the additional efficiency of the IMA is on the order of 8 to 10%. Other things, like light weight, low Cd and low rolling resistance tires are as important to additional fuel efficiency as the IMA iappears to be adding.

Now if Honda has some new tricks up it's sleeve for an improved IMA, like the LiOn batteries planned for the next Civic hybrid, and perhaps a bigger electric motor, then it could find its way to claim a significant part of the hybrid market. But unless these new tricks come to the CRZ, it's hybrid legacy will continue to hamper it's appeal.
 

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The CR-Z is the only hybrid available with a manual transmission. This probably isn't that important to most people, but it is the ONLY thing that puts this on the map for us. Maybe someone here can answer; has Toyota found a way to add a manual to their parallel hybrid system? IMO, it would be really hard to do since they'd have to pipe the electric motor output into the transmission or the ECU would have to somehow match the gas engine RPM to wheel speed (in the gear the car is in) when the car switches from electric power to gas. In this regard, the unique design of the IMA system is it's biggest strength and its biggest weakness.
 

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:police: what year is that again?? and i'm talking 100% stock trim... not some swapped suspension/etc... toyota's have always had a softer feel than Honda...
Well if you want to talk about people movers reviewers seem to prefer driving the Sienna SE over the Odyssey.

- MR2 Turbo - I don't think there was really a comparable 2-seats Honda at the time so who knows.
- AE-86 Corolla.
- Early 90's Camry - Yes this is the car that has been hailed as the last good family sedan (Before they all because electronic & stuffed with weight)
- Supra - I mean realistically what did Honda have at the time that competed aside from the even more expensive NSX.
- More recently the Celica was pretty fun for an entry level sports compact.

Point being Toyota has made fun cars before and some of them sold quite well. Others..... not so well (MR2). I'm sure they could do it again.
 

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They are different cars for different markets, but for good or bad, the Prius has defined in the marketplace what a "hybrid" is supposed to be. The biggest baggage that the CRZ carries is the word hybrid on it's hatch. As the Prius broadens it's appeal with both larger and smaller versions. And specifically if the smaller version is able to achieve even better fuel economy, the CRZ's hybrid baggage gets even heavier.

I think you might be too optimistic to believe that IMA will add as much as 25% better efficiency to an already very efficient car like the new civic. Based on my experience comparing my real world fuel efficiency between my CRZ and my Fit, I have concluded that the additional efficiency of the IMA is on the order of 8 to 10%. Other things, like light weight, low Cd and low rolling resistance tires are as important to additional fuel efficiency as the IMA iappears to be adding.

Now if Honda has some new tricks up it's sleeve for an improved IMA, like the LiOn batteries planned for the next Civic hybrid, and perhaps a bigger electric motor, then it could find its way to claim a significant part of the hybrid market. But unless these new tricks come to the CRZ, it's hybrid legacy will continue to hamper it's appeal.
read my response below for the "Prius C" comparison...

to comment on the new Hybrid efficiency... YES, HCH3 gets Li-on batteries and i'm guessing a better IMA to go along with that... and even if they don't the current CR-Z IMA was pushed from it's 56lb-ft to over 70lb-ft with just an upgraded battery... the HCH2 is already at 76lb-ft so adding a more powerful battery i can see the HCH3 having around 85-95lb-ft in production trim meaning even less stress on the gas engine... also Honda can either produce the same size battery as current but of course it would be a lighter the pack b/c it's Li-on and that alone will get more mpg's from an overall lighter curb weight or make it larger to allow for even more juice... either case the battery pack ALONE will help the efficiency increase on the new model... the fact that the 2012 Civic will have a 2.0L engine that still gets 40hwy, which is better than the current 1.8L engine at only 36hwy... knowing the efficiency they got out of a 2.0L engine has me guessing that the new powertrain will not only be larger than the current 1.3L, but also more powerful and FE... the CVT will likely get a simulated 7-gear with a long ratio for added FE... so my guesstimate of "close to, if not, over 50hwy" do not seem too far off...

of course this is not official yet so there's no point in arguing the numbers on my side any further...
Well if you want to talk about people movers reviewers seem to prefer driving the Sienna SE over the Odyssey.

- MR2 Turbo - I don't think there was really a comparable 2-seats Honda at the time so who knows.
- AE-86 Corolla.
- Early 90's Camry - Yes this is the car that has been hailed as the last good family sedan (Before they all because electronic & stuffed with weight)
- Supra - I mean realistically what did Honda have at the time that competed aside from the even more expensive NSX.
- More recently the Celica was pretty fun for an entry level sports compact.

Point being Toyota has made fun cars before and some of them sold quite well. Others..... not so well (MR2). I'm sure they could do it again.
thanks for the info but i wasn't comparing what Honda had at the time that Toyota had certain "sporty" cars out... i asked what was the "last" sporty car Toyota had?? everyone knows that Toyota has had nothing but soft cars lately and that was my point in pitting this "Prius-C" up against the CR-Z... yes, the CR-Z might not get great hybrid mpg, but it's not dull like EVERY Toyota on the market today...
 

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Just a note: Civic Hybrid uses a larger 20 hp electric motor (CR-Z is 13 hp). This is where the 76 lb.-ft comes from, not an upgraded battery. Civic Hybrid uses a larger battery pack to keep enough juice for real world use of the larger motor.

Realistically Honda has already had to hobble the IMA in that car when an update increased the cars affinity to regenerate the battery pack. This is why the Civic Hybrid dropped from an EPA 45 highway to 43. More regeneration meant more friction on the motor and hence lower fuel economy when cruising. Our CR-Z cars do the same, more aggressive charging to keep the battery pack at a healthy charge level. Coming from my 06 Civic Hybrid I don't miss the old days of running low on charge when using the AC around town. I don't mind the trade off of a couple MPG for a better overall driving experience. However this means our EPA highway number suffers for that benefit.

Hope I was clear in explaining that, I bet the next Civic will be an improvement but 50 highway sounds a bit unrealistic.
 
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