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CVT Gear Engagement?

18K views 66 replies 22 participants last post by  CrzyCRZ 
#1 ·
So, as a lot of you know, I have a 2011 CVT/EX with all the trimmings I bought back in August of 2010 (USDM).

I'm on 25K miles.. Pretty easy commute miles. No minders on changing the CVT Fluid yet..

Two days ago sitting at a stop light, hit the gas and was like it was in neutral for a half second - RPMs hit about 5K and all the sudden the drive kicked in with a bit of a jolt. Never happened before.. Happened again today.
:blink:
Fluid looks pretty clean off the stick.. Guess I am gonna need to bite the bullet and take it in to the Stealership/Maintenance department to have a looksee. Before the CR-Z had a 07 Civic CVT Hybrid and no associated issues.. We'll see I guess..
 
#2 ·
Well, its a good thing you're still under warranty. Isnt 25k miles about the lifespan of the CVT fluid?

Also, is it possible that you had accidentally bumped the shifter into neutral. Ive found that on my new 2013 cvt if my ipod cable happens to be in the way of pull the shifter from P to D I can make it into drive, but the top 'button' does not completely disengage. Its like an inbetween area. Like 60% in drive so it will drive, but can be bumped into neutral. (happened to me today)
 
#5 ·
The fluid on the stick is NOT a very good indication of the gunk that is in the bottom of the pan, stuck on the mag plug, and clogging your filter. Especially for the first change. I'm not saying that's your problem. I'm just saying looking at the dip stick is not a good qualifier.

I've done 5 CVT and filter changes on my Insight and CR-Z. All were about 10k miles apart. In addition to the particles and darkness of the fluid, the viscosity of the old vs new fluid was very evident. IMO, the old fluid was used up.

Remember that some dealerships aren't aware of the CVT filter. Sometimes you have to show it to them.

I hope that's all you need to get your CVT back in good health.
 
#9 ·
Mine will sometimes do this if autostop engages while the car is still coldish and has not drove more than 1/8-1/4 mile. It also seems autostop is extended during these times, but that could just be me. My hypothesis is when the CVT shifts into neutral for autostop, air might be in the line. When the engine fires up, it takes a delayed time to shift from neutral.

I bought my car at 14k miles, and it did it to me then. I've changed the CVT fluid and filter, but it still occurs at almost 40k miles. What I do to prevent this is I get in the car and start it. I put the car into drive, and let my foot off the brake. I always park using the parking brake, so I let that hold the car while I get strapped in, set the radio, fan, ect. which takes 30-60 seconds. I release the parking brake and drive off. Since I've started doing this, I've NEVER had the issue again.
 
#11 ·
I don't know if it is similar or not, but I find an odd response when I coast to a light, and even roll in auto-stop for a bit. Upon starting to move off again, the CVT takes a moment to engage (then does the "rubber-band" thing). Most annoying. I figured that the pulleys are adjusted for the coasting that I did before the stop, not for pulling away from a stop, and take a moment to reset. But I've never had it rev that high without engaging (I think I'd stop pressing the accelerator before then, Scotty! :p ). Do you recall if you had a particularly long period of coasting to a stop, before the two incidents you describe?

You sure you weren't trying to show off? No pretty girl in a Porsche stopped beside you?

Please let us know what the dealership says, about the condition of the fluid in the bottom of the pan, and also if there were significant metal particles on the plug. Very interested to know this.
 
#13 ·
I don't know if it is similar or not, but I find an odd response when I coast to a light, and even roll in auto-stop for a bit. Upon starting to move off again, the CVT takes a moment to engage (then does the "rubber-band" thing). Most annoying. I figured that the pulleys are adjusted for the coasting that I did before the stop, not for pulling away from a stop, and take a moment to reset. But I've never had it rev that high without engaging (I think I'd stop pressing the accelerator before then, Scotty! :p ). Do you recall if you had a particularly long period of coasting to a stop, before the two incidents you describe?

You sure you weren't trying to show off? No pretty girl in a Porsche stopped beside you?

Please let us know what the dealership says, about the condition of the fluid in the bottom of the pan, and also if there were significant metal particles on the plug. Very interested to know this.
It happened from a stop and a normal take off. Quick, maybe less than a second. Was stopped at a incline in each case (Going up). Has not happened since. I'm actually not too worried about it. Just wondering if others have had the same thing happen. But it is about time to get the fluid changed. Service Department still doesn't think there is a filter involved and the service manual is not helping my cause.. LOL.. Think I get the stuff and take it to the Navy auto-hobby shop, put it on the lift and do it myself.

I hate to even suggest this, but if the dealership is fuzzy about the filter, take extra steps to make sure they do it. Either have them show you the old parts or better still, mark the old filter so that you identify if they did actually replace it.

If you cut the filter open, you will see that it is a pretty fine filter that wouldn't take a lot of mud to clog up.

Going a step further, it is pretty simple to change the fluid and filter. You might want to consider doing it yourself or enlist a buddy with some mechanical skills. If you still have that K&N intake, it has to come out to access the dipstick. Is this something you trust your dealership to remove and (more importantly) reinstall?
Yea, as mentioned, ditching the Service Department idea. On the K&N, it was a tight fit to check the fluid and gonna hafta go back out and see if my funnel will squeeze in there for the refill.. If not, hopefully it is just a matter of removing the filter.. Good point and looking out though.. Thanks..
 
#12 ·
I hate to even suggest this, but if the dealership is fuzzy about the filter, take extra steps to make sure they do it. Either have them show you the old parts or better still, mark the old filter so that you identify if they did actually replace it.

If you cut the filter open, you will see that it is a pretty fine filter that wouldn't take a lot of mud to clog up.

Going a step further, it is pretty simple to change the fluid and filter. You might want to consider doing it yourself or enlist a buddy with some mechanical skills. If you still have that K&N intake, it has to come out to access the dipstick. Is this something you trust your dealership to remove and (more importantly) reinstall?
 
#18 ·
For your own sanity, if you do it yourself, get a couple of small, clear, glasses, such as large shot glasses. As the old fluid is draining, let a little run into the glass. Then as you are refilling, pour a little new fluid into the other glass and compare them. Also note the buildup on the plug, which has a magnet in it.

Feel free to share pictures.

Again, it really is dirt simple. The filter is just a little goofy. Not difficult, just goofy. First, use pliers to loosen and pull the hose clamps back at each side of the filter, then loosen the hoses grip on the filter. Then you can take the big clamp off of the filter and pull the hose ends off. If you take the big clamp off of the filter first, you loose your mechanical advantage of leveraging the hose clamps and risk yanking the hose off from the wrong ends.

Also, it is VERY important to note the orientation of the filter and insure the new filter is pointing the same way. Use your cell phone to take a before picture if you don't have a photographic memory. It looks like it might could go either way. Don't fool yourself. It is critical to be correct on this one.
 
#19 ·
^ Hey thanks Jay - input and help is greatly appreciated.. For me and the other members.. Great input..

:thumbup:
 
#22 · (Edited)
I'm considering getting my CVT fluid changed, since my cvt has been "bouncy" today with the rubber band effect and its been very hot and I drove it pretty hard yesterday for 2 hours when it was also very hot. Also, you guys say 20k miles (or less!) is as good a time as any to replace it. I am about to hit 21k.

I don't feel like doing it myself. Lazy and no experience. Called the two Honda dealers in my area. Dealer A was all "there is no filter". Few minutes later "ok, there is a filter, but it is not serviceable, and we have never changed that part here". Dealer B, where I bought my crz, was "oh ok, we usually don't recommend having those changed until 100,000 miles, but if you would like to let me go get a price on that part..."

Dealer A: $257 total
Dealer B: $79.99 for fluid drain+fill, $61.18 for filter+labor.
Dealer B also went on to say for now I could just change the fluid and save myself some money, and if the problems I'm experiencing don't seem to be solved then we could order the part/see if it might be covered by powertrain or certified used warranties (doubt it).

I think I may go with his suggestion and just have the fluid changed for now. I know you guys are all "rah rah rah! change the filter". What is your opinion on the status of the used filter when you pull it out? Was it dirty enough to warrant changing it? I look forward to your answers...
 
#24 ·
Holly, neither A or B sound like great options…IMO.

I don't know of any individuals on a Honda forum that have actually taken the filter apart…other than me. Not bragging or anything, but it helps to understand what is going on. The filter assembly is a 4 disc filter. It is housed in a tough steel case, which is why people don't take them apart. I had to use a high speed wiz wheel to cut mine open.

I can't find any reasonable image on the internet, but here is something most people can understand...

It functions by putting dirty fluid around the outside, and the only fluid that can flow out has to pass through the filter to the center of the tube kinda like this picture.

http://www.strassburger-filter.de/uploads/pics/Modulgehaeuse-Grafik_02.jpg

That picture is a poor representation because our filters only have 4 discs, which are very fine mesh and they look much like this
http://www.p-wholesale.com/upimg/21/867a2/fuel-filter-discs-848.jpg


Grasp that image and functionality and move to the fluid change. Is the fluid that comes out the bottom of the pan at the drain clean enough to flow through those 4 fine mesh discs?

You can draw your own conclusions by...
1. look at the magnetic drain plug as it is taken out of the bottom of the CVT pan. This is steel debris that would be circulating through the CVT and filter, but has sunk to that corner of the pan when the engine was shut down. There are still metal particles circulating that haven't been lucky enough to land there or have been trapped in the filter mesh. Non-magnetic particles are still circulating without be accounted for. When you clean the magnetic plug, you'll see the tiny magnets and can decide if the volume of magnetic particles have met the capacity of the magnet. If the magnet was bigger and longer, would it have caught more?

2. look at the gunk in the oil that comes out. I take samples of the oil in a clear jar, let them settle for a while, and examine what sinks to the bottom.

3. run your finger or other object to scrape a sample of the bottom of the pan after the drain is complete. Is there any sludge or is there just oil there? Maybe stick a small telescoping magnet in there and see what you find.


Now put it all together. Understand that oil lubricates metal parts and carries away heat. The more work your CVT does, the more heat is generated, which means you need more oil circulation. This filter is in line to the CVT oil cooler which is located inside of the radiator. The less flow you have through the filter, the less cooling of the oil.

In my experience, I have only cut open 1 filter. However, I have done items 1, 2, and 3 several times. And I conclude that the filer and fluid need to be changed in no higher than 15,000 mile intervals.

You can use the following disclaimer to claim I am being to cautious or use it for credibility, I don't care….I've been an aviation mechanic for almost 40 years. In aviation we "try" to keep things in tip top condition, as opposed to waiting until the pilot detects symptoms of something wrong.

Our CVTs need the oil to keep them from failing. If the filter is completely clogged, it will still get oil. There is oil splashing around and spraying all the parts whether the filter is in play or not. If the filter is not in play, the oil splashing contains particles can get between other moving parts and cause more hear, more wear, and more particles. The hotter the oil gets, the more it will loose it's lubrication and viscosity qualities.

In conclusion, this whole thing is about giving the CVT the opportunity for a long life span. If you trade your car every 3 years and don't give a rat's tail, why bother? If you are thinking long term, the CVT fluid and filter change should be done at least every other oil change.

It's not rocket surgery to change the fluid and filter. Buy the fluid and filter from the dealer or College Hills or HandA or Bernardi, and let some friend, local shop guy, or somebody like that do it. It just takes basic hand tools like a ratchet wrench, a screw driver, a pair of pliers, a socket. You can save a $100.

Here are pics from my first Honda Insight CVT filter change.

Insight Central: Honda Insight Forum

Insight Central: Honda Insight Forum

Insight Central: Honda Insight Forum

Insight Central: Honda Insight Forum
 
#25 ·
Ah ok, so nobody would have pictures of the inline filter. Thank you for the detailed write-up! I definitely want to be on the safe side and replace that inline filter along with the fluid, because I don't know how long I'll be keeping my crz for.

I will look into hiring a friend to teach me how to do it..
 
#26 ·
I think I actually got this off the Forum a while back. Memory fails me. But here is one.

 
#27 ·
Ah so this is what I would see from under the crz. Thanks!

I also wanted to see the actual filter, and how dirty it was with metal particles. But from what jayemtee said, you have to basically have to cut it open to get to the little filters inside.
 
#28 ·
Btw GOOSE doesn't want to help, he said he just brought his to the dealer for that. And someasiankid (the blue crz guy I met at a local car show) also suggested taking it to the dealer for that. -__- I guess I'll bite the bullet next pay check. At least I won't have to do it at 30,000 miles when the B service minder pops up.
 
#29 ·
I know of nobody in various Honda CVT forums that have taken apart the filter. I can't find a picture online of the inside of that filter assembly. Surely, somebody has taken it apart. It's just not very well documented. I thought I had posted a picture of mine at one time, but I can't seem to find it. At one time, I thought the filter might be a coarse wire mesh ball to keep chunks from being caught in the radiator in case of a catastrophic CVT failure. Once I discovered what was inside, I was very enlightened.

There aren't a lot of pictures of the outside of the filter, but there are some. It looks like this.
http://www.carid.com/images/wp/genuine/w01331934907oes.jpg

When dealing with a questionable salesman/service/parts guy about this filter, the key to his knowledge/credibility might be in how fast they find it. This filter is not in their parts book under CVT. It is in the radiator section. And their picture will look just like the one mentioned on page 2 of this thread.

There is a filter in the CVT section, that is deep within the CVT, and yes, 100,000 miles is probably when it should be changed. It will look to be about the size and shape of a quarter in the CVT diagram. That's not the one we are talking about.

If there is anyone with more or better info than I've provided, I'd love to hear it. In my little world, I think my info based on less than 10 fluid/filter changes is better than a sales guy quoting a maintenance minder guide, or a service department guy that has never seen one in real life, or what somebody heard in the service training class.

While you are down there learning how to replace the filter, it would be a good time to clean the radiator from the back side. Use air and/or water to blow backwards through the fins to blow out leaves, dirt, bugs etc that get sucked in. A good back flush will improve cooling efficiency.

Changing the fluid/filter is not much more challenging than changing the eng oil/filter. I've done it 3 times for friends. One gave me a case of Dr Pepper made with real sugar. One gave me tickets to Blue Man Group. Another bought me a filter and 4 quarts of CVT fluid for my next change.
 
#30 ·
I had the service manager with the better price tell me the part number he found, and it is the one that you quoted in a different thread, jay. I have a friend who works as a mechanic at a competing Honda dealer. Maybe he will do it for me on the side.
 
#31 ·
I can't imagine anyone who changes their own oil not wanting to take on that task. Perhaps it's a mystery of the unknown. That's cool though. You certainly don't want somebody doing something to your car that they aren't comfortable with.

But that brings up 2 things that would scare me about a dealer doing mine. First of all, if they don't know squat about it, do you really want them changing it? They have as much experience as you do and much less background info. I'd pretty much want to see the old one after they changed it to make sure everybody is in agreement on what was done. Maybe see the new one before hand. Second, I have the K&N Typhoon intake. While it's not rocket surgery either, I'm not sure I want the dealer farting around with it to get to the fill port/dipstick.

This is what you see from the left front tire.
Insight Central: Honda Insight Forum

in the top right, the drain plug is removed and there is a drop of fluid hanging on the bottom of the housing. You can see the blue engine oil filter. Next to it there is a big radiator hose, then a smaller line. The next item is the filter. You can see the yellow colored hose clamp on the line that goes into the filter. Squeeze the ears of the clamp together with pliers and it will slide away from the filter so the hose can slide off.

My picture is an Insight, but the physical parts in question are the same. Scotty's pic is accurate, at a different angle. Everything is in easy reach, no special tools are required, no special precautions beyond what you would expect from an oil change. Again, I'm not sure what the big deal is.

Holly, maybe if you learn how to do it yourself, you can do it for the people that are afraid of it and charge them half of what the dealer charges. Everybody wins!
 
#32 ·
As far as changing it with the typhoon, you can get a transmission flex funnel.. Kinda like the one depicted here.. Towards the bottom of the page to the left..

Blitz USA: Oil Drain Pans and Funnels
 
#33 ·
Scotty, don't you have the Typhoon? or had it at one time? Do you typically pull the dipstick with it installed? I always pull the filter and box out without thinking of alternative ways.

I'm okay with the Typhoon. I don't want the fluid changing crew at the dealership figuring out something that isn't in their service manual. I'd be willing to bet 9 out of 10 times, the lower tube would not be connected when they give the car back, even if the rest of it was done correctly.
 
#34 ·
Yep, still have the Typhoon. Kind of a pain, but have been able to pull the CVT Dipstick and check the level/condition every month or so. Not an easy out easy in by no means. But doable..

Edit: If I was going to take it to the Stealership service department, I would probably tell em to use the Flex funnel I brought with me.. Would think they would have something like it already, but you never know. They could say otherwise just to - Eh - know where I am going with that.. LOL..
 
#36 ·
Here's another question for cvt owners. This is what has caused me to suddenly want to change my cvt fluid/filter.

When you take your foot off the accelerator, and do not brake, is it normal to feel the car "jolt"? Opposite to the car lurching forward when first giving it gas from a stop (or auto stop). Is it just the engine braking kicking in? It is most noticeable when I am driving in parking lots or neighborhoods, going <20mph and I take my foot off the accelerator to slow down for a bit. I can feel the "jolt" even when taking my foot off the gas pedal at speeds of 40mph! Of course its not as strong at that speed.

This is my first cvt, so idk :dunno: I've googled what I'm experiencing and other makes of cvt have this as well, but I haven't determined if its a "normal characteristic". I can see the RPM needle bounce down when "jolting", similar to seeing it bounce up when lurching forward.

Thoughts to calm me or worry me further?
 
#38 ·
A small jolt would be normal IMO. Did the same in my previous 07 Civic Hybrid with a CVT. Will be a little more prominent if in the CR-Z Sport mode. The feel at 15-20MPH I would say is analogous to say having an MT in 1st or 2nd gear and letting off the gas at 15-20MPH..
 
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