Converting my Nimh CRZ to Lithium (Cells & Supercaps) and boosting IMA performance...

57966 Views 399 Replies 33 Participants Last post by PeterPerkins, 24 d ago

PeterPerkins

Discussion Starter · Nov 2, 2020 (Edited)

I'm a long time member/admin on the Insight Central forum and have worked on lots of the Honda IMA cars developing gadgets and doing Lithium conversions.
I've just bought a nice CRZ for myself and intend converting it to Lithium, upping the IMA power output and developing manual IMA control and info display devices.

I'll be documenting it in detail on here.

However for background reading visit www.insightcentral.net.
That's were millions of posts and most of my daily work is as I still have two G1 Insights and support owners worldwide.

The IC link below gives you a heads up and a few details on my ideas.

Honda CRZ Nimh to Lithium Conversion.

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PeterPerkins

Discussion Starter · #341 · Jul 9, 2021

Changed the battery current sensor for the Nimh one and no IMA codes now with standard current levels but still very early days.
I'll try a longer test drive this morning.. Then I'll add the +22% current hack and see how it goes.

All interesting stuff and seems to be working normally but obviously much more sprightly than stock due to the double stock voltage under load.

Under 100A+load Nimh cells might sag to 85V, so 85V * 100A = ~8.5kw..
Under 100A+ load these cells might sag to 170V, so 170V * 100A = 17kw... LOL

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PeterPerkins

Discussion Starter · #342 · Jul 10, 2021 (Edited)

Comedy torque steer acceleration with added motor whine.

I have been running around for a couple of days now with the Frankenstein setup and have just reintroduced the +22% current hack.
This seems an excellent match for this setup and no IMA errors so far.
Power has been around 150A peak at 2krpm and 170V with warm charged batteries = 25.5kw!!!
150A is the fuse limit so I am not going to try and push more current for now.

The motor/ima is whining nicely like a Tesla in launch mode for an added edge...

I haven't needed to add the IMA manual control gizmo yet, this is all with the standard ECM control requests.

This setup seems a good match for the Lithium bits from the CRZ, and 180V nominal from these packs gives me 10V headroom for regen before the DC-DC cuts out.

For the final step I will add 30 more volts (Another half block of cells) If that works consistently over several weeks I will build the much lighter LIPO cell pack in due course.

30V * 150A will get us another 4.5kw and to that magic 30kw milestone or we will blow up in the process.

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Eddie70

· #343 · Jul 10, 2021

Sounds like you are having a blast with the car. Love these updates.

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PeterPerkins

Discussion Starter · #344 · Jul 10, 2021

Eddie70 said:
Sounds like you are having a blast with the car. Love these updates.

Yes it's good fun and I'm learning all the time.

If other Nimh CR-Z owners want to follow in my footsteps with the 25kw IMA upgrade then they will need a Lithium CR-Z IMA assembly for parts.
They will also need skills, time and money to build their own 180V nominal battery pack to power it all.

Of course if someone gives me £5000, a Lithium CR-Z pack, and suitable Lithium batteries I might offer to do it.

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Mark S

· #345 · Jul 10, 2021

PeterPerkins said:
Yes it's good fun and I'm learning all the time.

If other Nimh CR-Z owners want to follow in my footsteps with the 25kw IMA upgrade then they will need a Lithium CR-Z IMA assembly for parts.
They will also need skills, time and money to build their own 180V nominal battery pack to power it all.

Of course if someone gives me £5000, a Lithium CR-Z pack, and suitable Lithium batteries I might offer to do it.

Hi Peter,

As always, a great read.
Think we'll need video evidence of the Whine ;-)

As the Lithium cars are a bit rarer, do you think there will be bits we can canabalize from say a Civic?
Instead of having to find a Lithium CRZ

Cheers
Mark

PeterPerkins

Discussion Starter · #346 · Jul 10, 2021 (Edited)

Mark S said:
As the Lithium cars are a bit rarer, do you think there will be bits we can canabalize from say a Civic?
Instead of having to find a Lithium CRZ

Possibly, but someone would have to buy test/donor cars/parts so they or I can investigate.

The HCH2 Civic might be an option..
It's designed to operate at 158V nominal and we already know the DC-DC will work upto 220V.

But that would mean a lot of extra mechanical fabrication and layout work on your own Nimh assembly.

As we can't see inside the 30kw HPD super Lithium box they might actually be using an HCH2 IPU.
They are def using an HCH2 DC-DC.

There are loads of HCH2's being broken on e-bay etc for peanuts.
If someone wants to fund that research and my time I might look at it.
I'll need the complete HCH2 IMA assembly including battery from behind the seats.

Now I am intrigued.......

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Mark S

· #347 · Jul 10, 2021

PeterPerkins said:
Possibly, but someone would have to buy test/donor cars/parts so they or I can investigate.

The HCH2 Civic might be an option..
It's designed to operate at 158V nominal and we already know the DC-DC will work upto 220V.

But that would mean a lot of extra mechanical fabrication and layout work on your own Nimh assembly.

As we can't see inside the 30kw HPD super Lithium box they might actually be using an HCH2 IPU.
They are def using an HCH2 DC-DC.

There are loads of HCH2's being broken on e-bay etc for peanuts.
If someone wants to fund that research and my time I might look at it.
I'll need the complete HCH2 IMA assembly including battery from behind the seats.

Now I am intrigued.......

Sooooo, what years are the HCH2????

PeterPerkins

Discussion Starter · #348 · Jul 10, 2021 (Edited)

HCH 2 Civic Hybrid Second generation (FA3/FD3; 2006–2011)

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/honda/civic-hybrid-2006/

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PeterPerkins

Discussion Starter · #349 · Jul 12, 2021 (Edited)

Well I made it to the UK CR-Z gathering at Croft on Sunday.
Ran the 25kw mode there and back and it worked very well.
Covered about 200 miles of varied terrain, no major issues to report.

I need to get my IMA MITM manual control gadget working soon as the regen surge that comes in when you lift off the throttle is almost too strong.
This will only get more pronounced as I raise voltage and power even higher.

It can be ameliorated with the IMAC&C gadget which can reduce the regen level automatically.

Anyway plan for this week is take it back out briefly to tidy some bits.

1) Swap to the NIMH Phase sensors.
2) Add the 220V capable HCH2 DC-DC converter.
3) Add the extra block of cells for 210V
4) Test 210V at standard current.
5) Test 210V at +22% current..

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PeterPerkins

Discussion Starter · #350 · Jul 12, 2021 (Edited)

I've had a good look at the HCH2 IPU and the workshop manuals and I don't think we can do it sadly.

The HCH2 Civic has the MCM (Motor control module) integrated into the much more sophisticated IPU with the phase sensors, and it has a seperate BCM (Battery control module).
In the CR-Z the MCM is in with the BCM in the seperate box. The IPU is a much simpler unit and the phase sensors are an external unit.

Sorting out all the CAN comms without access to secret info from Honda would be incredibly difficult, time consuming and expensive.

So the IMA hacking options so far are.

Stage 1) Standard Nimh parts = Absolute Max 150V and 125A so about 17kw reliably with excellent Lithium cells.

Stage 2) Nimh MCM/BCM with Lithium IPU, Lithium DC-DC, Lithium switch/fuse assembly = Absolute Max 190V at 150A so about 25kw with excellent Lithium cells.

Possible Stage 3) Nimh MCM/BCM with Lithium IPU, HCH2 Civic DC-DC, Lithium switch fuse assembly = Absolute Max 220V at 150A ao about 30kw with excellent Lithium cells.

Note. Stage 3 has not yet been tested or proven.

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Mark S

· #351 · Jul 12, 2021

PeterPerkins said:
I've had a good look at the HCH2 IPU and the workshop manuals and I don't think we can do it sadly.

The HCH2 Civic has the MCM (Motor control module) integrated into the much more sophisticated IPU with the phase sensors, and it has a seperate BCM (Battery control module).
In the CR-Z the MCM is in with the BCM in the seperate box. The IPU is a much simpler unit and the phase sensors are an external unit.

Sorting out all the CAN comms without access to secret info from Honda would be incredibly difficult, time consuming and expensive.

So the IMA hacking options so far are.

Stage 1) Standard Nimh parts = Absolute Max 150V and 125A so about 17kw with excellent Lithium cells.

Stage 2) Nimh MCM/BCM with Lithium IPU, Lithium DC-DC, Lithium switch/fuse assembly = Absolute Max 190V at 150A so about 25kw with excellent Lithium cells.

Possible Stage 3) Nimh MCM/BCM with Lithium IPU, HCH2 Civic DC-DC, Lithium switch fuse assembly = Absolute Max 220V at 150A ao about 30kw with excellent Lithium cells.

Note. Stage 3 has not yet been tested or proven.

Ah such a pity, but thanks for checking

PeterPerkins

Discussion Starter · #352 · Jul 16, 2021

I have the 210V pack in

but I'm still tinkering with the HCH2 dc-dc so it's not working yet..

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PeterPerkins

Discussion Starter · #353 · Jul 16, 2021 (Edited)

I added in the extra LTO block so now have 210V nominal when fully charged.

The car has accepted the pack and starts with the IMA but faults after a few seconds when running with a battery current sensor issue.
I need to investigate that and refer back to my earlier work with the sensor.
The car may be expecting more current that the motor can deliver at this higher voltage.
I suspect start up sensor calibration and the pre charge contactor resistor, any way I can do some faking if necessary.

Note to self! Do not wire up HCH2 DC-DC converter 12V logic side backwards and fry your MCM

Oh well I had a spare and will check out the old one once I get the thing running properly.

The HCH2 DC-DC is now working fine..

Need to take it all back out again. (Ten minutes)
Sort out the MCM and get access to the pre-charge resistor.

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buudyolepal

· #354 · Aug 3, 2021

hey im making an all electric offroad crz. just gonna chuck a leaf motor in there some batteries and what not. youre posts are helpful because im thinking of keeping the IMA for extra power (and clutch usability) and i have the 2011 NiMH manual transmission model.
your cool man. where's the acceleration test drive though? get a go pro we need to see😭

.

PeterPerkins

Discussion Starter · #355 · Aug 3, 2021

Apologies to all for lack of updates, I have just been super busy with other stuff and likely to be so for another month or so at least.
When it is all working to my satisfaction I will do another rolling road session on the same dyno I used at the start of this thread.

I won't do 0-60mph standing launch 1st gear starts as I value my expensive driveshafts.

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PeterPerkins

Discussion Starter · #356 · Aug 9, 2021 (Edited)

Well I snatched a few hours to do some final tweaking and have found the 210V setup is unreliable and I have reverted back to the 180V.
The current sensing just does not seem to like it above 190V and we know the Lithium DC-DC stops working at 190V, so 170-180V seems a good nominal.

With the +22% current hack I was seeing 155A x 165V = just over 25kw in 4th gear at about 2k rpm.
If the voltage of my pack sagged less under load I might get 155A x 175V or around 27kw..

The LTO batteries really need to be nice and warm ~35C to deliver 100A+ without sagging too much.
Battery/power connections, wires and the 150A fuse etc also sap power when currents are high.

I have a few bits to tidy up and a few more small tweaks, but we are at about the limit using the Lithium CR-Z parts without insider Honda info.
I might use these LTO Lithium blocks for a while as I assemble a lighter neater 180V nominal superpack..

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PeterPerkins

Discussion Starter · #357 · Aug 25, 2021

I did 1000 miles in my OEM Lithium CR-Z last week on holiday in Scotland.

It didn't miss a beat, performed reliably with good economy, around 59 mpg in varied UK driving, but the IMA battery really doesn't have much capacity.

One decent hill or spirited overtake and it's done.. The SOC is up and down like a bride's nightie.

I would estimate it's useable Ah capacity is down to about ~50% of what it would have been when new.
Lithium cannot be rejuvenated like the earlier Nimh packs and is much more difficult to repair.

A decent cycled older Nimh pack has more staying power on a climb...... (Last longer)
This is the second OEM Lithium pack I have tested with the same basic results.
Slightly better instant IMA S+ performance (Kw) but less capacity (endurance).

So my advice is don't get hung up on OEM Lithium when selecting a used car to buy.
The Lithium car is a bit nicer than the earlier ones due to the other cosmetic/engine changes but not double the price nicer.

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JJ magnum318

· #358 · Aug 28, 2021

PeterPerkins said:
Comedy torque steer acceleration with added motor whine.

I have been running around for a couple of days now with the Frankenstein setup and have just reintroduced the +22% current hack.
This seems an excellent match for this setup and no IMA errors so far.
Power has been around 150A peak at 2krpm and 170V with warm charged batteries = 25.5kw!!!
150A is the fuse limit so I am not going to try and push more current for now.

The motor/ima is whining nicely like a Tesla in launch mode for an added edge...

I haven't needed to add the IMA manual control gizmo yet, this is all with the standard ECM control requests.

This setup seems a good match for the Lithium bits from the CRZ, and 180V nominal from these packs gives me 10V headroom for regen before the DC-DC cuts out.

For the final step I will add 30 more volts (Another half block of cells) If that works consistently over several weeks I will build the much lighter LIPO cell pack in due course.

30V * 150A will get us another 4.5kw and to that magic 30kw milestone or we will blow up in the process.

what's a "IMA manual control gizmo" ?

PeterPerkins

Discussion Starter · #359 · Aug 28, 2021

JJ magnum318 said:
what's a "IMA manual control gizmo" ?

www.crzforum.com

IMA Manual Control.

IMA Manual Control IMA Manual Control has been a very desirable function for modders and tweakers with IMA cars ever since they came onto the market 20 years ago. AFAIK it has only been successfully implemented in two Honda IMA models, the G1 Insight 1999-2006 and the HCH1 Civic Hybrid...

www.crzforum.com

www.crzforum.com

Jeffd

· #360 · Aug 28, 2021

Peter, You could have called in on the way to Scotland (unless you did west coast route?)

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