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Discussion Starter · #301 ·
I suspect the OEM Lithium pack will not simply drop into a Nimh car and work but I may be wrong. :unsure:
Or it may work in a fashion with error codes etc ..... We shall see...

If the connectors for the main IMA low voltage harness are not the same I won't be just dropping it in.
I suspect the final solution will be a frankenstein pack with bits cherry picked from both systems.
 

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Really looking forward to the progress on this! Really cool to see the supercaps perform well and without any fuss while still fitting in the oem ima housing. Is there any way of monitoring the temperature of the IMA motor when increasing current to ensure everything stays within reasonable temperature? I know the car doesnt have anything from the factory but adding a sensor and wiring it in as a safety feature, so when it gets to hot the max current gets limited.
 

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Discussion Starter · #303 ·
Is there any way of monitoring the temperature of the IMA motor when increasing current to ensure everything stays within reasonable temperature? I know the car doesnt have anything from the factory but adding a sensor and wiring it in as a safety feature, so when it gets to hot the max current gets limited.
It's doable but a pain in the neck as you would have to split the gearbox from the engine to get at the motor to insert a sensor or two.
Drill holes for wires, shield them from the horrible EMF inside the housing etc..

The IMA motors are very well (over) engineered and never fail in actual, service even when seriously abused.

Yes you could theoretically burn out the stator or demagnetise the rotor if it gets too hot..
But they are ten a penny in scrap yards because they don't break normally..

I've spent 15 years abusing IMA motors and haven't had to change one yet. ;) It's basically a non issue. (y)

You can also extrapolate likely motor temperature from other temperature rises, the IGBT module or the IMA battery for instance.
If the motor is working hard so are they and vice versa.

You can also count current/power versus time to calculate energy and motor duty etc..

Finally the stock IMA battery even when in perfect health simply does not contain enough energy to burn up the motor even if dumped through it in one long manual assist event.

Maybe just maybe ascending/descending a huge ten mile hill in Arizona at 40C+ might give an issue if you had a big Lithium pack.
 

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The calculations make a lot of sense, and would save a lot of hassle fitting a sensor. its just something that came to mind as i drive the car quite enthousiastically in some occasions, good to know the motors are up to a lot of abuse! The more you Advance in this project the more serious im thinking about starting a conversion myself with my current knowledge about electronics and the IMA system. The added torque from the IMa motor would make it a very capable car on twisty roads or smaller tracks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #306 · (Edited)
Back now with the nice CR-Z OEM Lithium Pack on the bench..

I managed to get the ducting, IMA Fan, ECM & Connectors and the brake pedal switch and connector from the sad looking crashed car..
I should be able to rig up another car on the bench type setup and then compare notes on the comms versus the Nimh packs..

Thanks Ivan for the parts and his mum for the Tea and hot buttered toast after a long journey. (y)
 

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Discussion Starter · #307 ·
First look at stuff.. Don't expect super rapid progress I have to do some decorating for a friend next week. Nooooo :(


If anyone has a pdf circuit diagram/workshop manual for the lithium cars that would be very useful.

Main motor connections and IMA harness connector look compatible.
Need to carefully check harness connector pinout etc. That's why I need a diagram..
12V+ would need slight extension possibly as located a little farther away.

Physically I suspect the lithium pack will fit in and bolt to the same places as Nimh packs.

63732


63733
 

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I just want to state that your posts (and also other threads) are extremely valuable! So thank you! :)

The CR-Z is a car with great reliability, generally, but the hybrid battery will fail at a given moment. It has proved to be good and long lasting, but it won't last forever of course. So having all this information is valuable and will become more and more valuable in the future I think.

By the way, in the Netherlands, multiple companies revise or refurbish hybrid batteries for reasonable prices (€650-750 incl. labour). This seems far cheaper than OEM replacement or Bumblebee Batteries (who don't ship to Europe). What is your opinion on this?
 

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Discussion Starter · #309 ·
By the way, in the Netherlands, multiple companies revise or refurbish hybrid batteries for reasonable prices (€650-750 incl. labour). This seems far cheaper than OEM replacement or Bumblebee Batteries (who don't ship to Europe). What is your opinion on this?
I refurbish (rebuild) IMA batteries for UK and EU owners, I've done hundreds and travelled all over the UK and to the continent several times to fix IMA cars, but not for 750 euros!
I replace all the old cells with brand new decent ones. They cost more than that to buy for a start.. So no idea on what these multiple companies are doing re quality etc.

Actually trying to fix a failed pack by stick swapping etc is tricky, time consuming and tedious, with generally short lived success.
They all have to match very closely, and the car will seek out and destroy weak sticks and cells pretty quickly. :oops:
It's simply not economically viable or guranteeable at the prices you mention.
I charge at least double that for a new stick pack, but do give a three year RTB warranty.

Once your pack has got to the really failed stage (which luckily few CR-Z ones have), then unless it is a simple one stick premature failure you are better off replacing all the sticks and starting afresh.
Mixing old and new sticks, or sticks from different packs is always problematical.
 

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I refurbish (rebuild) IMA batteries for UK and EU owners, I've done hundreds and travelled all over the UK and to the continent several times to fix IMA cars, but not for 750 euros!
I replace all the old cells with brand new decent ones. They cost more than that to buy for a start.. So no idea on what these multiple companies are doing re quality etc.

Actually trying to fix a failed pack by stick swapping etc is tricky, time consuming and tedious, with generally short lived success.
They all have to match very closely, and the car will seek out and destroy weak sticks and cells pretty quickly. :oops:
It's simply not economically viable or guranteeable at the prices you mention.
I charge at least double that for a new stick pack, but do give a three year RTB warranty.

Once your pack has got to the really failed stage (which luckily few CR-Z ones have), then unless it is a simple one stick premature failure you are better off replacing all the sticks and starting afresh.
Mixing old and new sticks, or sticks from different packs is always problematical.
Nice to get you insights. I am no expert at all, so I can't tell you what these companies do exactly. Here are the links to two Dutch companies that offer this:


If you are using Chrome, Google Translate will offer to translate the website to English I think.
 

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Discussion Starter · #311 ·
Well it looks like they offer refurb (cycling etc) + 6 month warranty 750 or new + two year warranty 1745.

New is similar price to me. I don't bother with refurbing for the reasons already given..

I noticed the light bulb for discharging in one photo LOL.

We have already covered cycling in the other thread and my YT video on build your own kit for 50 euros. ;)

Further battery discussion on the other thread please as this is OT for this thread. (Admin can you move these posts thanks..)
 

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Discussion Starter · #312 · (Edited)
I've been bingeing o_O on some resources I have found.

I have assimilated the various CR-Z Lithium diagram details and connector pinouts so now I need to organise all the info.
Then do some careful comparisons and make some judgements on compatibility between the Nimh setup and the Lithium one.

I have discovered the Plus+ Sport button on the Lithium cars is connected to the Gauge cluster and not the ECM or MCM directly.
It presumably then signals via a packet on the FCAN line to the ECM/MCM that it is being pressed/not pressed.

Attached is an interesting pdf you may not have seen. :unsure:
 

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imagine you can somehow put a Zf2 battery pack Lithium into say a Zf1 and replace the NiMH
that would be craaazyy
63745
 
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Discussion Starter · #314 ·
The 144V Lithium pack weighs 40kg. 144V x 5ah = 720 wh approx theoretical capacity.
The 100V Nimh pack weighs 36.5kg. 100V x 6ah = 600 wh approx theoretical capacity.

Usable capacity would be quite a bit less than the theoretical 100% SOC capacity.

+/- 0.5kg or so weight accuracy of my bathroom scales.
 

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Discussion Starter · #315 ·
I've started a new thread for the OEM Lithium/Nimh swap project as this one is getting huge...

 

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Discussion Starter · #316 ·
Latest update is on the other thread..

 

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Just doing a casual ebay browse at the moment, with the amount of newer plug in hybrid cars from various manufacturers, would it be of any interest to look into battery packs of any of these cars? there are loads of BMW/Mercedes/kia/hyundai hybrid parts for sale. And as technology had moved on a few years since the CRZ lithium packs and a lot of these cars being heavier or able to do motorway speeds on their motor alone, shouldnt the packs have decent capacity and should withstand the current generated by the IMA systen during regeneration? I'm trying to see if i can find some specs on a few
 

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Discussion Starter · #318 · (Edited)
It is always useful; to peruse and examine what Lithium options are available. (y)
Post details on any you find in the below thread which is specifically for battery options etc..


Bigger larger capacity higher voltage packs will be able to sustain higher peak power and assist/regen durations.

But there will be a weight/size penalty, and as mentioned fitting them securely and safely and making it all work is the challenge. o_O
 

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Greetings Peter. I just love what you do.
May I ask you a question? Which pins are for the two battery sensors are for the MCM? Thanks so much. Cheers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #320 ·
Greetings Peter. I just love what you do.
May I ask you a question? Which pins are for the two battery sensors are for the MCM? Thanks so much. Cheers.
It's not very clear what you are actually wanting. :unsure:

The battery current sensor has two outputs one coarse and one fine.

There is a workshop manual on here I believe for the Nimh cars, that will have a circuit diagram and connector pinouts etc.
 
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