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Discussion Starter #101 (Edited)
Voltage Hack Stage 1 +30V Test Drive Update

On today's grocery delivery run the car performed faultlessly with the +30V hack in and running.
Performance was as you would expect very lively. :devilish:
I would think we are at least on par now with the OEM Lithium CRZ owners at around 15/16kw (y)
I might even be ahead of them a bit as my pack voltage doesn't sag much under load due to its large capacity low IR cells.
We will find out later in the week on the rolling road. :cool:

There is not much to say really, it's in and worked as expected.
It probably needs a few tweaks and some long test drives (when permitted) to iron out any bugs or foibles.

Voltage Hack Stage 2 +60V Test

This does not work at the moment but don't lose hope. :)
The car accepted the pack but would not start with the IMA and then gave an error.
The HDS shows a battery current sensor fault which I suspect is due to the calibration and start up sequence the IMA performs at switch on.
So some more work is required on this.

When you first turn the car on the MCM calibrates the battery current sensor at zero as no current is flowing. (OK No problem with that)
Then the MCM engages the precharge contactor to charge up the large filter capacitors via a low value power resistor in the IPU.
These capacitors (several thousand 'uf') have to charge to a certain voltage level in a certain time. <500ms or so.

The MCM will expect the current flowing to charge the capacitors to be within a certain range.
We have added 60V to the system and the bypass resistor value is unchanged.

Let's say the resistor is 20R and our OEM battery voltage would normally be around 115V.
That gives a current flow of 5.75A

However our battery is actually 175V so using ohm's law (Amps = Volts / Resistance) we can see that a current of 8.75A will flow, an increase of 3 amps.
This discrepancy between the systems expected current when precharging and our actual current is probably causing the MCM to think the sensor is faulty.

When hacking in the past I have usually done current hacking first which reduces the current the car see's by around 30%.
This helps to prevent the car seeing excess current. So we can have a go at this later.

I could increase the value of the precharge resistor to say 30R this reduces the current to 5.8A (Near enough and that might satisfy the system)
However the precharge resistor is not accessible with the pack/ipu in the car.
I will need to pull the pack and add some wires to bring a connection to an easy location like I have done for a few other signals.
The system will have certain tolerances built in, but we must be outside them in this instance.

I need to do some further testing with the BCM fooler voltage tap device as the MCM internals are not exactly the same as the earlier IMA cars.
We might need to adapt it slightly to improve its performance and consistency.

More housekeeping tomorrow and work for other customers and on other projects.

First week of CRZ IMA research summary.

1) Yes. You can fairly easily convert an aging feeble Nimh CRZ pack to a perky Lithium one of a suitable size and voltage/current capabilities using well established IMA hacking principles.

2) Yes. If you have access to a Honda HDS clone you can reset the MCM so it treats your Lithium pack like a brand new OEM Nimh one with optimal (high) power settings.

3) Yes. The car will accept and use the Lithium pack within the OEM SOC range for a Nimh pack. So you have about 3.75Ah 'useable' capacity once reset.

4) Yes. You can fool the battery temperature sensors (25-27C) to ensure the IMA delivers full power at all times. (i.e It doesnt think the battery is cold)

5) Yes. You can increase the system voltage by at least +30V to gain a few kw/hp of IMA performance. Bringing Nimh cars into line with OEM Lithium ones.
There may be some voltage wiggle room between the 144V (worked) and 175V (Didn't work) packs I have tried. I am limited at present by my available pack sizes.
A 160V pack may work immediately for instance.

6) Yes. There is still a lot of work to do and significant performance enhancement potential remains to be teased out.
25-30kw should ultimately be achievable with some effort and perseverance.

Thanks for your interest it's been a busy week.
Please give a thumbs up on here or like my videos on YT if you do.
That gives me an idea of who/how many are watching.

Cheers Peter
 

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Discussion Starter #103 (Edited)
One of the techniques for achieving maximum power is to ensure the MCM thinks the battery voltage is around 1V per cell when under significant assist load.
This equates to around 84V for the 84 cell CRZ Nimh pack.

At this magic number (84V) the car will allow the maximum amount of current to flow.
If the voltage is higher than this current is reduced proportionally as voltage increases.

Remember the MCM trying to maintain a set Kw power output, so as battery voltage sags under load current has to be increased to compensate and vice versa.
1.0V per cell in all the other Nimh IMA cars seems to be the minimum for a perfectly balanced pack under load. I see no reason to suspect the CRZ is any different.

So you can add a device which watches the assist current and when it gets to say 40A or so it switches in a faked (84V) for the voltage sensors.
The MCM then rapidly increases current to compensate. Our faked 84V never goes below the critical 84V max power point so peak output is consistently maintained.

If you go below the magic 84V (1..0V per cell) the MCM progressively cuts current to try and keep the battery voltage at or just above it.

With the setup in my car at the moment my detected pack voltage does not fall much below 110V (140 in reality with the +30V but the car does not know this.)

So if the ECM is requesting 10kw that would require about ~91A at 110V, so that's what the MCM delivers.
But if the MCM thought the pack was only at 84V it would have to increase the current by 29 amps to achieve the requested 10kw output. (84V x 120A = 10kw)

If I had faked my voltage down to 84V under load the car would have allowed ~120A to flow.
With my actual pack voltage at 140V that gives 16.8kw IMA output. :devilish:

Hacking is never ending once you get going!

I glimpsed 91A today on the HDS at 140V actual which is 12.7kw of assist.
My detected voltage is def too high as my cells don't sag much under load, so I need to fake it down when assisting at high levels.

EDIT. Corrected all the figures as had Insight voltages in my head after a long day!

Note. The car will generally not start with the IMA if the pack voltage is less than 100V when unloaded or 1.2V per cell.
 

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Surely the MCM will smell a rat if the battery voltage does not drop as it previously did. I.e. there is not only current and voltage but time to consdier. Unfortunately my time slowing device is not yet working as the Dilithium crystals haven't arrived.
 

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Discussion Starter #105 (Edited)
Nope not in the other IMA cars.. They will happily let you fake a fixed voltage under load for maximum power.
It was one of the techniques I used to get 30kw out of the Insight IMA motor!
My pack was at an actual voltage of ~230V but I told the car it was at 120V (1.0V x 120 cells in the Insight) PPP (Peak power point)
I haven't seen anything yet that suggest to me this won't be similar for the CRZ.

The only problem with time is there aren't enough hours in the day to do everything.
 

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I think I need larger capacity batteries in mine. The car is quick off the line and upto about 50mph but I think the engine is starting to do all the work thereafter. When I get my HDS working, I'll be able to see what the battery status is. I bought a DLC splitter so I can plug both this and the CanBus analyser. I hope to be able to capture the data as the HDS is requesting it and thereby get a clue as to the can ids.
 

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Hi, is quite a bit of times I would like to buy a crz, I have reed the full thread, I saw your comment saying the mcm cut the power of the ima in relationship of the kms and year of the batteries, I also read is possible to reset that parameter, bu l didn’t understood how is possible to do it, I would like to do that work when I buy the car, and after install a lithium battery pack and well if possible uprgrade the % of the ima assistance ,

please keep doing what you doing because is very cool
Hi,
I'm assuming he has a Honda HDS Clone
Do a search & I'm sure you will see what is out there

Mark
 

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Discussion Starter #108 (Edited)
I do have a flaky Honda HDS Clone I bought it ten years ago and it cost a fortune then $700 or so.
But it's vital for stuff like this and they have come down a lot in price.

Note. I have corrected my voltage figures in post 104 as I had Insight voltages on the brain!!

The magic PPP (Peak Power Point) voltage for the CRZ under assist load will be around 84V.

This is a spliced video showing a side by side direct 20-70mph 2nd gear acceleration comparison of my 30kw hacked IMA Insight versus a turbo charged Insight. (Not much in it at the end.)


The MCM/PCM (IMA Brain) gets voltage information from two places.

1) The Voltage Tap wires.
2) From the IPU Module.

Any voltages we change at 1 & 2 above must remain in step and synchronised or the car will throw a code.

This is a simple schematic for an isolated switchable PPP (Peak Power Point) voltage hack based on my 144V +30V LTO Lithium pack.
This is only half of the actual setup needed, but let's take it one step at a time and focus on the MCM voltage taps first.

62602


In normal use (i.e. Non super assist mode) the HV from the pack pases through 15k R2 and then goes to the BCM fooler (A 7 x 10k (70k) potential divider ladder)
The 15k/70k divider drops my 144V pack voltage down by 30V to bring it into the car's normal operating range.

When the hack is enabled it turns on the Optocoupler and brings the 85V zener diode into play.
This pulls down the input voltage and fixes the voltage being fed into the BCM Fooler at the magic PPP (Peak Power Point) ~85V (y)
The capacitor C1 smooths the transition between modes/voltages.

Notes.

1) Zener diodes are not super accurate devices, you might need to test a few to get one spot on 85V
2) Zener diodes are not available in every voltage, so you might need to series lower voltage ones to get to the magic number.
3) The circuit as presented with the 70k BCM fooler has a tiny parasitic drain on the Lithium pack, but unless you leave the car unused for over a year it won't matter.
4) Don't be tempted to try and go below 85V or the car will just reduce the power.
5) We might need to experiment to find the exact voltage sweet spot, and every car will have slight variations in voltage tolerances.

We could add a little button on the dash you press to enable it or just automate it and base it on current flow etc etc etc!
If you press or if assist current goes over 50A etc There are lots of control possibilities.

The other half of the voltage faking is done by the little voltage gadget you have seen earlier.
That just needs to be told to switch to our fixed voltage when PPP is activated.
In fact it might be able to be in control of the system as it does have some flexibility.

The 12F1822 PIC processor I am using does have a couple of inputs that can be re-assigned/allocated.

Anyway back to other jobs today..

I'm leaning towards a discrete PPP KERS button on the back of the steering wheel.
Use a little $1 433mhz remote transmitter with it's own coin cell Lithium Battery so no clock spring hacking and wires are required.

This $1 receiver in the back tells the module to activate when the button is pressed and assist is > 50A . :cool:

 

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I used a 3button remote fob on my camper a few years ago to control a vacuum cruise control - it was much more convenient than the dash switch. I also have one on my yacht to remotely control the autopilot - on/off and steer port or starboard.
 

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Discussion Starter #110 (Edited)
The Juntek wireless meter has arrived so I can watch instant actual (real) voltage and current levels.
Once you start hacking the MCM then HDS voltages and current end up faked/altered etc because you are fooling the inputs.


It's nice to have something basic that actually tells you what is really going on at any given moment.
It helps for troubleshooting comparing real versus fake values.
They are surprisingly accurate as well for such a cheap device..
 

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Discussion Starter #111 (Edited)
This is a provisional schematic for a combo voltage fooling device that allows peak IMA performance for higher voltage packs and gives us a pseudo KERS button.

It's an amalgamation of the schematic a couple of posts up and the IPU Interceptor gadget.
But we have enhanced it with the steering wheel wireless PPP (Peak power point) button. :devilish:

If you don't want any fancy add ons or more power etc, then for a basic Lithium setup running at OEM voltages you only need the cheap BCM Fooler resistor matrix.
Of course you have to manage your Lithium cells with a BMS etc, but for the basic get it working with Lithium challenge you don't need much stuff.

Back to the schematic. This is for the power and torque addicts and tweakers like me...


62616


The circuit has a number of functions/features.

1) It has a $1 RX480 433mhz Receiver module on J4 to receive simple non locking button on/off push commands from a $1 steering wheel transmitter.

2) It has an input for a 5V hall effect current sensor with a 2.5V = 0 amps output on J3.
As current flows in one direction the output voltage goes up above 2.5v and in the other it goes down below 2.5V.
I'll use an old Insight phase sensor which measures about +/- 200A IIRC for testing.

3) It has an input for incoming IPU voltage data and an output to send modified data to the MCM on J1.

4) J1 also has the ignition switched 12V power and ground inputs for the device.

5) J2 is the PIC12F1822 programming connector. This is how we load the firmware for the device.

6) J5 has high voltage input and output connections for the battery voltage taps via the separate BCM Fooler resistor matrix. (That's the pcb inside my battery case)
The OEM +30V battery voltage comes in via J5 & R10, is dropped to match the OEM voltage requirements and sent on it's way to the BCM Fooler.
When you activate the KERS button the opto conducts and pulls the battery voltage down with the Zener diode to the PPP which is around 85V for the CRZ!

OK So I have a +30V Lithium pack what happens when I press the magic boost button?

The transmitter in the steering wheel sends the boost request signal to our gadget.
Our gadget says OK we want maximum current..

But before it allows that it looks at the current sensor to see if at least ~50A or so of assist is already flowing.
If it is, It knows the car is actually wanting to go, and the driver hasn't just pressed the button by mistake while sat at the traffic lights eating a burger.
We do not want to activate the device if the car is not already assisting fairly hard, hence the current sensor check.

Assuming the car is assisting at >50A then the gadget turns on the PPP 85V fixed voltage hack for the BCM Fooler and the IPU/MCM.
It keeps the hack engaged as long as the button is pressed and the assist current remains > 50A or so.
As soon as you take your foot off the throttle the car will cut assist, the current will fall below our cutoff and the hack will disengage.
Or you just release the button and it turns off.

That's basically how it works on the other IMA cars I have converted..
It's good fun......

Tomorrow's job, install the Juntek meter and build the above gadget!
 

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Can you perform the conversion Peter once fully developed and tested? I can barely wire a plug!

Is extra power available through the kers button only or is there a fixed amount of extra oomph.
 

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Discussion Starter #113 (Edited)
Can you perform the conversion Peter once fully developed and tested? I can barely wire a plug!
Is extra power available through the kers button only or is there a fixed amount of extra oomph.
I don't want to do the actual conversions or I won't have any time for more development! :cry:
I'm already working on multiple projects..

Some techy/practical guys or groups might start offering it based on my work and using my gadgets.
I'm not saying I definitely wouldn't do it. If someone paid me enough then like most of us I would do almost anything. ;)
I definitely would not do the interior trim remove and refitting.for others no matter how much I was paid.

I could be tempted to attend and assist at a group conversion day at some suitable premises for the right £££

The bottom line is if someone came to Hull with £££ and the trim/seats etc all removed I might do one for them. :eek:


Extra power comes in several flavours with Lithium....

1) By fitting a Lithium pack, fooling the temp sensors and resetting the system you immediately get back all the power and capacity your Nimh car has slowly lost over the years due to battery deterioration. This restored full power and SOC capability is available 24/7 365.

2) By fitting a higher voltage pack and using the tricks that are being tested and developed you get the above plus several extra Kw at the press of a button.

At the moment I am focusing on voltage hacking. Once that is maxed out we switch to current hacking, then we get even more power at 1 and 2 above.

Based on my work on other IMA systems I estimate anywhere from 20-30kw should be achievable depending on the voltage tolerance of the DC-DC module in the car.
The high figures over 20kw or so will likely require at least a 170V+ plus pack..


Note. The earlier schematic in post 111 has a slight change and has been reuploaded and dated 171120.
 

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I don't want to do the actual conversions or I won't have any time for more development! :cry:
I'm already working on multiple projects..

Some techy/practical guys or groups might start offering it based on my work and using my gadgets.
I'm not saying I definitely wouldn't do it. If someone paid me enough then like most of us I would do almost anything. ;)
I definitely would not do the interior trim remove and refitting.for others no matter how much I was paid.

I could be tempted to attend and assist at a group conversion day at some suitable premises for the right £££

The bottom line is if someone came to Hull with £££ and the trim/seats etc all removed I might do one for them. :eek:


Extra power comes in several flavours with Lithium....

1) By fitting a Lithium pack, fooling the temp sensors and resetting the system you immediately get back all the power and capacity your Nimh car has slowly lost over the years due to battery deterioration. This restored full power and SOC capability is available 24/7 365.

2) By fitting a higher voltage pack and using the tricks that are being tested and developed you get the above plus several extra Kw at the press of a button.

At the moment I am focusing on voltage hacking. Once that is maxed out we switch to current hacking, then we get even more power at 1 and 2 above.

Based on my work on other IMA systems I estimate anywhere from 20-30kw should be achievable depending on the voltage tolerance of the DC-DC module in the car.
The high figures over 20kw or so will likely require at least a 170V+ plus pack..


Note. The earlier schematic in post 111 has a slight change and has been reuploaded and dated 171120.
My bestie is a mechanic and a whizz with wiring. Would option 1 above be something a skilled mechanic could do if you were to retail what was needed to return my z to day one power.

Setting aside the want for a boost button, a return to rude health is definitely something I would want.
 

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Discussion Starter #115 (Edited)
Yes it's doable if you have the skills and money. But it's never going to be a drop in solution unless I win the Euromillions on Friday. ;)
It's too early to say how well it will work in the long run, but I don't have any reason to doubt it can and will work like in the other IMA cars.
It also still needs work and research on protecting any Lithium pack you install and interfacing with the car.

Todays video is the Juntek meter install.


Just added the Juntek 0-400V 0-500A meter.
This allows me to see instant voltage and current levels.

It also has temperature sensor but I haven't bothered fitting that as the packs are stone cold.
I might add it to the IPU heatsink later so I can see how hot that is getting under high assist/regen loads.

This is all proof of concept stuff so don't let the spaghetti put you off.
It will all have to come out again in due course to be tidied, sorted and properly mounted.
 

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I don't want to do the actual conversions or I won't have any time for more development! :cry:
I'm already working on multiple projects..

Some techy/practical guys or groups might start offering it based on my work and using my gadgets.
I'm not saying I definitely wouldn't do it. If someone paid me enough then like most of us I would do almost anything. ;)
I definitely would not do the interior trim remove and refitting.for others no matter how much I was paid.

I could be tempted to attend and assist at a group conversion day at some suitable premises for the right £££

The bottom line is if someone came to Hull with £££ and the trim/seats etc all removed I might do one for them. :eek:


Extra power comes in several flavours with Lithium....

1) By fitting a Lithium pack, fooling the temp sensors and resetting the system you immediately get back all the power and capacity your Nimh car has slowly lost over the years due to battery deterioration. This restored full power and SOC capability is available 24/7 365.

2) By fitting a higher voltage pack and using the tricks that are being tested and developed you get the above plus several extra Kw at the press of a button.

At the moment I am focusing on voltage hacking. Once that is maxed out we switch to current hacking, then we get even more power at 1 and 2 above.

Based on my work on other IMA systems I estimate anywhere from 20-30kw should be achievable depending on the voltage tolerance of the DC-DC module in the car.
The high figures over 20kw or so will likely require at least a 170V+ plus pack..


Note. The earlier schematic in post 111 has a slight change and has been reuploaded and dated 171120.
Thanks for giving your opinion on where you stand with this.

I would be prepared to remove all the trim (done it before) and bring my car to you for a mild lithium pack conversion, say 144v-170v

Of course depending on what the cost is, if it runs into the ££££'s then it won't be affordable for me.
 

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If there was enough interest in terms of members who can do the conversion themselves or have someone with the skills needed to do the conversion, would it be possible to organise a sort of group buy for whatever hardware/software you settle on when all r&d is done.
 

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Discussion Starter #118
If there was enough interest in terms of members who can do the conversion themselves or have someone with the skills needed to do the conversion, would it be possible to organise a sort of group buy for whatever hardware/software you settle on when all r&d is done.
I expect so in due course.

But I am snowed under and have G1 Insight owners in the queue ahead of CRZ ones at moment waiting for LTO conversions.
 

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Discussion Starter #119
Thanks for giving your opinion on where you stand with this.

I would be prepared to remove all the trim (done it before) and bring my car to you for a mild lithium pack conversion, say 144v-170v

Of course depending on what the cost is, if it runs into the ££££'s then it won't be affordable for me.
Thanks for the interest but sadly we are nowhere near that stage yet.
Months of research still lay ahead before any sort of price point or really firm technical recommendations/specs etc can be fixed.

I'm only really showing at the moment that technically it can be done. ;)
I also want to see how far it can be pushed before further progress and power increases become impractical.

I'm not offering to source lithium packs for the project unless people pay me a million pounds. LOL
Owners will need to look at what's available and perhaps as an organised forum group get some built that will fit into the available OEM space etc..
The actual sourcing and construction of a suitable Lithium pack is really the topic for another thread that someone else can start and manage.
I would chip in with recommendations but others need to get heavily involved on a practical and financial level.

There are lots of things to be considered, safety, security, cooling, cell specifications, fabrication, housing, wiring..
My work will give potential Lithium converters a massive head start, but personally I simply don't have time to manage this whole project with multiple far flung owners.

If people want to get serious about converting Nimh CRZ's to Lithium it will take time and effort from a few individuals to get the ball rolling for the benefit of all.
I'm doing my bit by showing it can be done, but I only have one pair of hands. :cry:
 

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I got my HDS working at last even if I had buy the software again, from an Ebay seller. DO NOT buy anything from OBD2SHOP.co.uk. They have had two attempts to supply me with useable software - the first DVD had a crack in it, and I could not get the files off the DVDs of the second set received yesterday. (tried 2 laptops and a PC)
Anyway, a quick look showed 21.3kw as max motor power, and 17.2kw as max charging power.
Remaining capacity was a disappointing 38%. I have a stop start system DTC which I need to clear before I can change any settings.
Peter, what happens if I tell it the IMA battery has been replaced?
Next step is to connect both the HDS and Can Bus analyser using a splitter cable from Amazon...
 
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