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Can the later OEM Lithium CR-Z pack fit into and work in an early Nimh Car?

23K views 121 replies 16 participants last post by  PeterPerkins 
#1 · (Edited)
Can the later 15kw OEM Lithium CR-Z pack fit in, and work in, an earlier 10kw Nimh Car?

I've started this new thread to document the testing and research into this idea.
My other threads are getting larger every day so this really needs a new one to keep it manageable.

63747


Let's start with a few basic facts.

2013-2016 CR-Z. The 144V Lithium pack/assembly weighs 40kg. 144V x 5ah = 720 wh approx theoretical capacity.
2010-2012 CR-Z. The 100V Nimh pack/assembly weighs 36.5kg. 100V x 6ah = 600 wh approx theoretical capacity.

Usable capacity would be quite a bit less than the theoretical 100% SOC capacity.

+/- 0.5kg or so weight accuracy of my bathroom scales.

A cursory visual examination shows.

The battery mounting space, mounting holes, and the main motor power cable connections appear identical.
So the packs should fit and bolt into the same place in either car. The foam boot inserts etc might be a bit different but that's a minor issue.

The 12V+ power lead looks slightly longer in the Lithium car, but it can be extended in the Nimh cars to compensate and reach the DC-DC connector.

The main IPU harness connector is identical and either pack will plug into either car.

IPU Harness connector detailed look.

Having studied the wiring diagrams and connector pinouts for both cars they appear to have almost identical pinouts and connections.
There are a couple of minor wire colour difference which may be due to UK/US car changes but the functionality appears identical.
There is an extra GND wire shown on Pin 16 in the 2013 Lithium car diagram that is not present in the diagram for the 2011 Nimh car.
Note the wire is actually present in my Nimh car so we can likely ignore this or just add a GND wire if needed.

It certainly looks like you can plug the Lithium pack into a Nimh car and vice versa without them fusing circuits. (y)

Things that might trip us up.

Of course we have a multitude of other things that will conspire against us to prevent this being a simple 1hr swap.
The main thing being CAN comms between the ECM & MCM modules in the front and rear of the car.

If the messages are different/missing etc then it will be very tricky to make it work.

I found the 4 x BMS modules on the Lithium car are connected to the IMACAN bus and not the FCAN.
So there will be four extra ID's at least on the IMACAN bus.

I suspect the BMS modules are exchanging voltage/balancing information with the MCM module in the IMA pack and not the ECM at the front.
This means our old Nimh ECM at the front will likely simply ignore this extra chatter on the IMACAN bus ;)

Anyway attached are the IMA harness connector pinouts for both cars and the wiring diagrams..
 

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#2 ·
This is gonna get a whole lot more interesting.

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#4 · (Edited)
Another useful pdf with pinouts and description of the Lithium IMA system and operating principles/major components.

The initial plan now is power up the isolated Lithium IMA pack on the bench (Make it think car has been turned on)
Have a look at the ID's/info being transmitted by the pack on the FCAN and IMA CAN buses to see if we have any interesting newbies.

Then attach the Lithium ECM to the setup and watch comms on the two CAN busses again.
If the results look encouraging then chuck it into my car and see what happens!! :eek:
 

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#6 · (Edited)
if you manage to do the swap using the OEM pack .. it will be the first in the crz community
 
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#8 ·
AND an answer to a frequently asked question.[emoji16]
Agreed.. most people are interested in the conversion but doesn't know how.

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#9 · (Edited)
The IMACAN packets appearing on the bus sent from the Lithium pack are the same as the Nimh packets except...

ID 201, 202, 203, 204 These are the Lithium BMS boards ID's and the packets contain the voltage information. (Not an issue the Nimh ECM will ignore them)

There is one other extra packet ID 501 which occurs once a second.

Hopefully this is the cell balancing command packet so will only be relevant to the BMS boards...
(Again hopefully the ECM will ignore this)

Need to check the FCAN now and add the Lithium ECM into the mix.. o_O
 
#13 · (Edited)
We have some sensible CANBUS comparison data. (y)

I set up both my bench OEM CR-Z systems (NIMH & Lithium)
Each had the ECM talking to the matched MCM on both FCAN & IMACAN.
I captured a snapshot of each BUS and combined them into the attached pdf with a few notes.

The gist of it is, It's definitely worth installing the OEM Lithium pack into the Nimh the car and seeing what happens. :unsure:

We have established the Nimh and the Lithium pack setups are electrically compatible (harness connectors/pinouts etc)
So it should not blow up or fuse things. I would say the chances of it working unmodified are 40/60 against..

More detailed analysis of the IMACAN data shows....

1) On the Lithium IMACAN bus there are 5 extra packets (4 are the BMS boards) and 1 is possibly the cell balancing command.
2) The other IMACAN packet ID's and transmission intervals match 100% between the systems.
3) The common packets are the same length on both systems. (Whether they contain the same data in the same positions is another matter!)

More detailed analysis of the FCAN data shows....

1) On the Lithium FCAN bus there are a couple of extra Lithium packets and a couple of missing Nimh packets. We don't know what these do.
2) The other IMACAN packet ID's and transmission intervals match 99% between the systems. Some small variations in transmission intervals.
3) The common packets are the same length on both systems. (Whether they contain the same data in the same positions is another matter!)

Some things I thought about that might easily mess us up.

A) Packet data from the two systems not in the same format, place,scale etc etc etc :oops:
(We are screwed!)

B) Extra (non common) packets sent by the Lithium MCM not being acknowledged by the Nimh ECM and vice versa.
(We might be able to add a dumb CAN device to just acknowledge unwanted messages on the BUS)

C) Swapping in the Lithium MCM really means the IMA rotor calibration procedure should be carried out with the HDS tool
However the HDS software might not like the fact we have a Nimh ECM and a Lithium MCM.
If we can't get to the appropriate screen in the HDS menu then we cannot do the procedure.
We might be able to ignore it as the Lithium MCM will have a completed rotor procedure stored but it will be for a different car.

I will remove the IMAC&C manual control stuff and any other gadgets for initial testing.
(The OBDIIC&C display can probably remain as that is just mainly listening)

It will be an OEM swap over so we get a sensible first test that is reproducible..
If that works then we can gradually add stuff back in.
 

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#15 ·
Looking good I liked how it bolted in no problem..

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#16 ·
Can someone with access to an online Honda parts catalog please look up the part numbers for the Nimh and Lithium motor phase wires assemblies.
If they are not the same that may well indicate the Lithium ones are different (longer).

Now of course I wish I had got the orange motor wire cable assembly from the crashed Lithium, car!!! :rolleyes:
 
#23 · (Edited)
In and working! (Stage 1)

I cobbled in the motor phase and 12V connecting wires for this initial test and it started straight away with the IMA as normal. :)
Of course we have an expected IMA error at the moment, but it is not fatal, and the IMA all still works Assist/Regen etc including the 12v charging etc.

So this is an almost OEM CR-Z Lithium setup for now..

No current hack. (This can be implemented in the same way as for the Nimh pack)
No voltage fooling. (Probably not required for Lithium)
No temperature fooling. (Probably not advisable for Lithium Polymer!)
No manual control. (This can be as for the Nimh pack)
No +S Plus Sport Button. (Manual control WOT mode etc take the place of this)

I suspect the OEM Lithium will be significantly less powerful than my 20kw+ Supercap hacked system I have just taken out.. LOL
But very interesting for development and understanding the system, as well as a potential simple +5kw swap for those with poor NIMH packs.

Useable capacity reported as 52%. Battery SOC 56%. (Maybe not the healthiest OEM Lithium pack in the world!)
But I do have a big stack of brand new identical cells just imported from the US so I could swap them all out.. Hmmm... :unsure:

I need to plug in my HDS now, talk to the car and find out what is bugging the IMA.
I suspect missing or extra non critical CAN packets or lack of response/acknowledgement from the Nimh ECM on one of the busses.

I'll go for a much longer test drive tomorrow.

It's been a long day (up since 5.30AM) and I have also fitted a customers G1 Insight with a new pack today as well as doing the CR-Z pack swap!!!!
Time to chill with a large glass of something alcoholic, vintage and reassuringly expensive. (y)



EDIT.

If you start looking for a junkyard Lithium CR-Z OEM pack now get the orange cable pack, boot foam inserts and any other little bits as well.
Although installing the orange cable from front to back underneath the car etc might be a royal PITA.
 
#28 ·
What I dont get is how is Peter able to simply swap to Lithium and no one prior even thought about it in years

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#29 · (Edited)
What I don't get is how is Peter able to simply swap to Lithium and no one prior even thought about it in years
Several factors have influenced this.

1) The 'IMA' system was warrantied for a long time in many countries 7/10/15 years and many miles.(y)
This actively discouraged potentially expensive tinkering in case it broke, then people would be stuck likely minus a warranty payout.

2) The''IMA' system is good at looking after itself and fudging data with software service 'updates'. :rolleyes:
Most people will not have noticed the slow inexorable decline in Kw output and duration of their IMA pack.

3) 'IMA' always signalled difficult and dangerous, so people (especially commercial tuners) shied away from it, and went with traditional engine based techniques.
With sensible precautions and skills you can do quite a bit of electronic performance tinkering as per my various threads. :cool:
 
#30 · (Edited)
Attached are the full DTC code lists for the IMA (MCM) and PGMFI (ECM) for the 2013 CR-Z (I might be needing these later!)

Currently trying to get the 2013 Lithium car capable HDS software working on my laptop. :rolleyes:

I might have to lug my desktop PC, monitor, keyboard and mouse outside into my car on the drive LOL!!
 

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#32 ·
The plugs on the battery packs are different also aren't they ?
How did you manage to make it work?

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#36 · (Edited)
I want higher performance (30kw+) out of the system eventually. (If HPD did 35kw then so can we!) :eek:

My likely plan once I have the OEM Lithium stock pack working properly in the Nimh car without errors, will be to pull it out and do some mods.
What they will be exactly I don't know yet it's far too early in this initial testing phase....

As mentioned it might be a Frankenstein pack made up of some hardware from both the OEM Lithium and Nimh cars..

i.e. The Lithium IGBT module, the Lithium DC-DC converter. (These have a higher voltage rating than the Nimh versions)

The Nimh MCM to drive the above modules as we already know a lot about this and can fake loads of stuff.

The battery will likely be lightweight Frankenpack Lithium Polymer 40-60S and 2P setup for double the capacity. at around 9-10Ah.
I may well use a 60S Orion2 BMS that I have kicking about.
 
#38 · (Edited)
So I lugged my desktop computer out to the car and set it up with a 17" Tesla style screen.... LOL
I captured the IMA and ECM Data lists and the error data.



I was expecting a few IMA codes but amazingly there is only one stored in each module (MCM/ECM).

They relate to the extra/missing packets on the FCAN bus I spotted with the Lithium desk setup.
It looks like the Gauge cluster is complaining about missing packets from the MCM, and the ECM is complaining about a missing packet from the MCM.

If packets are sent on the bus and not acknowledged by at least one receiver that will give a CAN error, as the sender will continually re transmit the data waiting for an acknowledgement.
The modules will only acknowledge what they have been programmed too, so there are a couple of packets floating about with no home and a couple of missing ones that need sending.

I already have my OBDIIC&C connected to the FCAN, so I think for starters I will simply program it to acknowledge the extra packets,
and squirt out the missing packets as per the format/intervals from the earlier captured data.

Unsurprisingly I wasn't able to do the rotor position calibration or reset the useable battery capacity due to the stored DTC's.
I'll be able to complete that once I have got rid of the codes..

Time for a test drive. (y)

Attached is the captured HDS data and DTC errors..
It's a zip file containing four XPS files. Rename from PDF to ZIP then extract it.

Also attached are a couple of advanced diagnostic info files covering these errors.

As there are no errors on the IMACAN line I think we can surmise that the IMAC&C Manual control joystick KERS gadget will plug in an operate as is with just a little firmware tweak to account for the extra 5 BMS related packets which we can ignore.
 

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#39 ·
50 mile test drive report.

Yawn!!! Not much to say it all worked as expected, no glitches or issues.
I would say performance of the OEM Lithium pack falls neatly between the old Nimh and my 20kw Supercaps...
So a good fairly simple power upgrade for a tired old Nimh setup if you can find a scrapyard OEM Lithium pack..

The Lithium setup does have a power rationing/counting/time system which probably becomes more restrictive as the pack ages.
I had one steep hill to climb and a long period of max assist in 6th meant assist stopped after about 20 seconds.
After about 20 seconds you could have more assist but it shut off quicker.
There is a calculation going on re amount of power versus time, and it will only allow so much in a certain time.
Once I have reset the useable capacity etc that may improve a bit if the cells will sustain it...

If this calculation/control is in the ECM then we can override it with the IMAC&C Manual control. If it isn't we can't.

The IMA fan was like a leaf blower (matched to the engine rpm) for the first ten miles as the batteries were very cold 3C,and it was working hard to warm them up with cabin air.
I cranked up the cabin to 25C to help warm it, and after a few miles the fan went back to normal speeds.

I captured some driving FCAN data to confirm which packets I need to acknowledge/send, so it's now onto programming a gizmo to do that and get rid of the IMA light.
 
#45 · (Edited)
Practical help needed..

I need some FCAN data grabs (via the OBDII port) from a running Lithium manual car. (No harness hacking involved)

I only had the Lithium ECM and PCM modules connected together to grab data with my crude bench setup.
So I maybe missing important Lithium car only messages. :unsure:

There are are a multitude of other systems on that FCAN BUS and I will likely need a full Lithium capture to compare ID's with my Nimh car

Any volunteers with a Lithium manual car especially in the UK and within 150 miles of Hull?
I can pop over and only need ten minutes in your car with my laptop and CAN adapter.
There is no danger of car damage this is listening to the BUS only. (y)

This is your chance to help support these projects in a practical way at no cost.. :cool:

If someone has a CAN adapter, laptop and lithium manual car in the US or anywhere else, of course that should also be doable.....

Please let me know asap.. Thanks Peter. (UK)
 
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