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Discussion Starter · #101 ·
I bought the white Lithium UK car, so I now have something standard to gather data from.
My plan is asses car and gather some baseline information over the next few days using HDS and CAN sniffing etc.

Add the RJ45 connector to the IMA harness so I can plug in the IMAC&C manual control etc or gather IMACAN data.
Then make some changes to the other Frankenstein car and see if we can get that to finally accept the OEM lithium pack.

That should keep me busy for a bit..o_O
 

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I bought the white Lithium UK car, so I now have something standard to gather data from.
My plan is asses car and gather some baseline information over the next few days using HDS and CAN sniffing etc.

Add the RJ45 connector to the IMA harness so I can plug in the IMAC&C manual control etc or gather IMACAN data.
Then make some changes to the other Frankenstein car and see if we can get that to finally accept the OEM lithium pack.

That should keep me busy for a bit..o_O
Ohlawd

Freaking legend.
 

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Discussion Starter · #103 · (Edited)
So gathered various OEM Lithium FCAN & HDS CANBUS data today from my new UK car, see attached PDF data lists.
No DTC's or issues reported and 5000km + since last reset.

63998


Useable battery capacity is reported as 43% which is lower than my other Lithium pack at 52%
It hasn't been driven much at all for a year or so and I need to drive it about to see if that comes up.

I did try the HDS useable capacity reset (Battery replacement) command but that failed, so I need to analyse the captured CAN bus data.
Maybe you can't do that with Lithium? If so it's a bit odd that it appears in the menu and lets you attempt it.

Maybe it is detecting the serial number or voltage of the BMS boards and realising the battery hasn't actually been changed so refuses to play ball.
More investigation needed. Maybe need more uptodate HDS software for the command to function.
 

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Discussion Starter · #105 · (Edited)
First impressions OEM Lithium versus Nimh. (y)

The OEM Lithium car does feel slightly quicker and the IMA does seem to occasionally deliver it's ~15kw (130v x 120A) when the battery is warm.
Performance is probably comparable to my early IMA stage 1 hacked Nimh car with good battery.
The full hacked Nimh car is still a bit faster with ~20kw plus from the IMA when running the Supercaps.

The Sport Plus S+ button seem to make negligible difference to the actual peak IMA power.
Maybe it is changing the IMA power delivery curve in some more subtle way.
I'll reserve judgement on that for now. It's certainly not a 'wow that's great' button at the moment.. :unsure:

I did notice the Lithium car will deliver upto 120A in most modes when booted.
The Frankenstein car will presently not deliver more than 85A from the Lithium pack under any conditions.

Now that might be due to several reasons.

1) The Lithium pack in the Frankenstein car is really weak and performance is being restricted. (Unlikely)
2) The IMACAN assist requests from the Nimh ECM are different (less?) than the power requests from the Lithium ECM. (More likely)

The engine definitely revs higher than the Nimh car, I've had nearly 7k on the rev counter in 2nd and still not hit the rev limiter.

64005


Lithium

64006


Nimh
 

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Discussion Starter · #106 · (Edited)
So now we are starting to get some data. (y)

I need to temporarily reinstall my Nimh pack in my Nimh car and get a bit more info though... :rolleyes:

I am 99.9% certain IMACAN is not the source of the DTC error I have in the Frankenstein car.
The IMACAN differences between the OEM Nimh V Lithium cars is all explainable... BMS Boards etc

So that leaves FCAN which is the error which is being flagged.
Note there are about ~12 packet differences between the cars.

The Lithium car has nine extra ID's the Nimh one doesn't, this could include things like the S+ button etc etc

The Nimh car has three extra ID's the Lithium one doesn't.

I need to verify which end of the BUS they are coming from, ECM end or MCM then I can eliminate some from the investigation....

I did notice a couple that may have moved ID slightly, i'll need to look at the data in the packets if that is the case.


64004
 

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Discussion Starter · #108 · (Edited)
I've put the standard Nimh pack back in the Nimh car for now to gather some more baseline data.
I must have swapped IMA packs in and out over half a dozen times now..

Then I will do a final swap back to see if I can get the OEM Lithium working 100% in the Nimh car.
It's all down to the CANBUS data analysis now.

This also means in due course I can build up a Frankenstein 30kw+ pack on the bench out of half a Nimh pack and half a lithium pack LOL.
 

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Discussion Starter · #109 · (Edited)
Trying to force BMS balancing activity in a Lithium pack on the bench.

I've charged two cells in the block shown to nearly ~3.9V when the pack is at 3.75V.
No change in id 501 CAN data at present or any sign of balancing activity.

I'm going to leave it powered up for 24hrs and see if the voltage of those boosted cells comes down at all.
If they do then it must be balancing, perhaps to the block average or a pack voltage in that constant 501 data..


Interestingly the series balance resistors on a CR-Z are not the same for each channel! (Weird)

64037


The first and last channels 1 & 10 are 43R x 2 = 86R, the middle 8 channels are 40R x 2 = 80R.

Anyway if we ignore the FET losses and imagine balancing at 4V / 80R = 50ma x 4V = 0.2W.

So a ~1ah overcharge will take ~20hrs to burn off.
 

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Discussion Starter · #110 · (Edited)
OK I'm not getting any balancing behaviour at present so what might be preventing it from happening.
What does this bench setup not have that a car setup does. :unsure:

Let's forget all the ECM engine stuff as that's unlikely to affect the IMA.
So what about the IMA, what am I missing? Have you spotted it?

The only thing external to the IPU/IMA assembly apart from the IMA motor/resolver itself is ........... The IMA cooling fan....

It does make some sense that if the MCM cannot detect the fan operating when commanded it might shut down any potential heat generating functions like balancing.
So I'm going to attach an IMA fan to my bench setup and see what that does. Is it being commanded to run for instance?

Edit.. No change with IMA fan added.. :unsure:

Maybe it just won't go into balance mode with IMA errors present.
(Errors are present due to no IMA motor position sensor fitted)

That's a pain as it means I would have to try and influence the inaccessible cells in my fully working lithium car.
I'm not ripping all the trim out of that at the moment. I hate doing that and I've only had it a week...
So for now we might be at an impasse and I will have to manually drain my two cells back down to match the others.

Back to the other projects... IMA Manual Control and the Frankenstein 30kw pack. o_O
 

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Discussion Starter · #111 ·
I manually discharged the two high cells to bring the pack back into balance and observed some interesting behaviour with two HDS parameters. (y)

1) Useable capacity %.

This slowly increased from about 43% to 52% as the pack came back into balance and the deviation/difference between the highest and lowest cell decreased.
So it appears cell voltage deviation is one of the parameters used to calculate the useable capacity. The closer all the cells are together the higher the useable capacity.

2) SOC %. This decreased from ~73% to 60% as I brought the two high cells back down to match the other 38 cells.

So the cell with the highest voltage is used as one of the parameters to calculate the current pack SOC.
This would help prevent overcharging as the high cell would reach full first and the car will stop regen when the SOC reaches 79% anyway..

The total pack resting voltage is likely also used as one of the variables in the SOC mix.
 

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Discussion Starter · #113 · (Edited)
So a lot of FCAN data analysis today from a ten minute trip in each car Nimh/Lithium.

To summarise, most of the CAN data looks/is very similar/the same.
There are a couple of packets on one car that do not appear on the other and vice versa.

Critical packets for initial examination are the ones sent out by the MCM and ECM in each car.

166 (4 bytes) sent out my the Nimh MCM and not the Lithium MCM
385 sent out by the Nimh ECM and not the Lithium ECM

1E2 (4 bytes) sent out by the Lithium MCM and not the Nimh MCM
313 sent out by the Lithium MCM and not the Lithium MCM

As we are putting the Lithium MCM in the Nimh car we have to deal with these conflicts and omissions.

We have to acknowledge 1E2 & 313 being sent by the Lithium MCM that would otherwise not be received by anything on the Nimh bus.
We have to replace the missing 166 normally sent by the Nimh MCM.

The fact the 166 Nimh and the 1E2 Lithium MCM packets are the same length (4 bytes) leads me to suspect they might be interchangeable.
So I might need to receive the IE2 packet from the Lithium MCM, change the ID, calculate the 166 checksum, and send it out to the Nimh ECM.

That's my next plan of attack.

We do however have one other potential issue..

Id 221. This appears in both cars at the same intervals and contains similar data but is not quite the same length :eek:
The Nimh car sends out 3 bytes and the Lithium 4 bytes..
It is not sent by the ECM or MCM so belongs to another device on the FCAN bus.

The problem is if the Lithium MCM listens to this ID then it will be expecting 4 bytes but the Nimh packet only contains 3. :cry:
That is an immediate FCAN comms error even if everything else is perfect.

So I need to try and identify the unit sending out this ID 221... Any ideas?

Even if we can identify it it might be nearly game over, as we would need another man in the middle device to intercept and change it before it got to the Lithium MCM.
We can't just put another longer 221 id on the bus or we will have an immediate conflict.

Who wants to have a go at making a list of all the devices on the FCAN bus in an Nimh car?

ECM
MCM
GAUGE CLUSTER
VSA
EPS
TPMS (Not UK)
SRS
YAW RATE SENSOR
CVT (Not my manual cars)
??


Don't forget though the Lithium pack actually works fine in the Nimh car. (y)
The only fly in the ointment and this minor annoyance is this FCAN error.
 

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Discussion Starter · #114 ·
Attached is the id 221 data from both cars.

You can see they both basically slowly increment the first data byte by a couple of counts in the ten minute drive.

So what is it?

Rename pdf to txt to view
 

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Who wants to have a go at making a list of all the devices on the FCAN bus in an Nimh car?

ECM
MCM
GAUGE CLUSTER
VSA
EPS
TPMS (Not UK)
SRS
YAW RATE SENSOR
CVT (Not my manual cars) (this is part of the ECM/PCM)
??
So I can't really keep up with the technobabble side of it, but I can help check out the list of CAN items.

only one thing that has a direct link to the FCAN that you haven't accounted for (lots of things have an Indirect connection, like the throttle body via the ECM/PCM)
  • OBD2 port
The gauge cluster is the common element of all the CAN systems - at least in a gateway sense - the FCAN, BCAN, and KLINE also go to the OBD2 port,
 

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Discussion Starter · #116 ·
only one thing that has a direct link to the FCAN that you haven't accounted for (lots of things have an Indirect connection, like the throttle body via the ECM/PCM)
Good point so what about a list of components that are likely to have data on the FCAN BUS but are not directly connected to it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #118 ·
Can the later OEM Lithium CR-Z pack fit into and work in an early Nimh Car?

I have spent quite a lot of time and money on this question now. :unsure:
It might be possible to crack it but I'm getting bogged down and wasting time with loads of other projects waiting, so for now my conclusion is..

Yes. But you will have the FCAN /IMA error comms codes. So if you don't care about that then fine..
You also have a few little cable tweaks to do with the IMA motor cable as mentioned earlier in the thread.

Note. Fitting the OEM Lithium pack to an OEM Nimh car does not mean an instant massive power boost over a good standard Nimh pack.
If your Nimh is a basket case anyway and hasn't revived using the cycling process then yes a good Lithium pack will of course be better.


So for now if you want to hack your IMA for more power the older Nimh cars are better/easier and cheaper. (y)
 

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Hello
I saw your forum for a long time, but decided to write only now
I converted my CR-Z to lithium by replacing the battery assembly, ECM, Instrument panel, ABS firmware.
The journey was long, but the result is pleasing. Only the motor wires had to be redone, since the ECM pinouts do not match.
if you have any questions: [email protected]

Original text:
Привет
Давно видел Ваш форум, но написать решил только сейчас
Я переделал свой CR-Z на литий методом замены батареи в сборе, блока ECM, Приборной панели, прошивки ABS.
Путь был долгий, но результат радует. переделывать пришлось только провода мотора, так как распиновки ECM не совпадают.
если есть вопросы: [email protected]

IMG_5115.JPG
 

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Discussion Starter · #120 ·
Hi Alex

Can you please post full details of your conversion and pictures on the CR-Z forum in a new thread.

Thanks Peter UK.

Привет, Алекс

Не могли бы вы опубликовать полную информацию о вашей конверсии и фотографии на форуме в новой теме.

Спасибо, Питер Великобритания.

Privet, Aleks

Ne mogli by vy opublikovat' polnuyu informatsiyu o vashey konversii i fotografii na forume v novoy teme.

Spasibo, Piter Velikobritaniya.
 
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