Honda CR-Z Hybrid Car Forums banner

81 - 99 of 99 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
686 Posts
Discussion Starter · #81 · (Edited)
The FCAN data gathering is temporarily on hold as the UK Lithium car is not available yet.. Damn.
I'm still driving my mutant Nimh/Lithium hybrid CR-Z daily, and no extra issues to report, so it will just have to wait.

I have got a new little laptop and have my portable HDS setup working now and able to talk with a Lithium car. (My old HDS software only went up to 2012 models)
So I can gather CAN sniffing data on the HDS side for things like Lithium cell voltages and a few other Lithium specific parameters to add to my OBDIIC&C display.

I could do with another UK car Lithium pack if anyone hears of another crashed car. (y)

In my quest for more power I want to make a Frankenstein pack using the IGBT module and possibly the DC-DC from a Lithium car in a hacked Nimh setup.
The Lithium parts should operate at a higher voltage than the Nimh ones, so that gives me the extra voltage headroom for more power I was looking for.

At 150V the Nimh DC-DC is maxed out on voltage and the IGBT isn't far behind..

The Lithium car sits at ~150V all the time so must have some headroom above that..
I really want another pack on the bench to test the modules without taking my working pack apart.
Then I can assemble the hybrid pack while I still have a working setup in the car for data gathering etc.

The Frankenstein pack would probably consist of.

1) 90/100 of the Lithium Polymer Honda cells in 45/50S 2P configuration, giving around 9ah capacity at ~180/200V. (Depends on what voltage the Lithium modules will tolerate)
2) Lithium Car IGBT Module. (Higher voltage and power rating) (Have to check if the data stream it outputs is compatible with the Nimh one)
3) Lithium Car DC-DC (Higher voltage rating) (Have to check if the data stream it outputs is compatible with the Nimh one)
4) Nimh Car PCM/MCM (It's easy to fool this with all the voltages, and it will talk to my Nimh car ECM without the FCAN issues)
5) Nimh Car Phase Current Sensors (Easy to fool and understood)
6) Nimh battery switch board and alloy IPU module frame.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
686 Posts
Discussion Starter · #82 · (Edited)
With my working laptop HDS I sat in the car all morning and gathered a load of data about the mutant car comms.
Mutant as in Lithium MCM and Nimh ECM. o_O

I also pulled a load of data from the Lithium MCM to add to the OBDIIC&C device once I get it all decoded. Cell voltages and temps etc

I managed to connect to the Gauges (meter) cluster ECU and that has helped with the FCAN comms bug I am chasing.
See the attached Nimh car meter data list. Note the +PLus Sport is not mentioned as expected..
(I will gather a Lithium car data list when I get the chance.)
Unless of course someone with a Lithium car and HDS can do it and post it?? It would be useful.

I still need the comms FCAN/IMACAN captures from the working Lithium car but this all helps. (y)

In essence the non fatal FCAN packet problem is ..... three probably interlinked DTC's

1) Gauge U0111 Gauge control module lost communication with Motor Control Module (BATT message)
The Gauge module is waiting for a packet from the MCM which never comes.

2) MCM U0155(106-0) F-CAN Malfunction (Gauge Control Module -Motor control Module (BCM))
This may be referring to 1 above or the Lithium MCM may be sending out a packet the Nimh Gauge never acknowledges as it is not expected.

3) ECM U0110 (126-15) LOST COMMUNICATION WITH IMA MOTOR CONTROL MODULE
This may be a generic combo of problems 1 & 2 above or another missing packet.

Once I have the live unmolested Lithium/Nimh car data it should all fall into place. ;)

Plan A. Find the missing packet the gauge is expecting. Replace/reproduce it and see what happens.
Plan B. One step at a time. :unsure:

The fact the car works and behaves fine is a clear indication it's not a critical issue. Just a mildly annoying one..:geek:
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
686 Posts
Discussion Starter · #83 ·
I reverted my car to stock Nimh for a few days to gather some baseline FCAN data I forgot to acquire months ago. :rolleyes:
No hack, no tweaks. no nothing.. (Except the OBDIIC&C display telling me what is going on.)

WOW There are a lot of packets on that FCAN bus in a working car.
One ($1DC) even appears on the snoozing bus as soon as you put the key in the ignition barrel.

Got all that anyway now, just need the Lithium car FCAN data and we should be nearly sorted. (y)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
686 Posts
Discussion Starter · #84 ·
Inside the OEM Lithium modules.. (Apologies for YT video rotation!!!)

DC-DC Converter, MCM(PCM) and IPU/MPI Power Module.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
686 Posts
Discussion Starter · #85 · (Edited)
Got some voltage related data on the bench from the Lithium IPU/MPI and DC-DC converter.
I ran the IPU upto 250V and it seems stable.. The Lithium DC-DC converter cuts out at 192V (Call it 190V for practical purposes)

That's an extra 40V of operational headroom if I use the Lithium car DC-DC and IPU versus the Nimh ones. .

40V x 150A = 6kw extra or about 8bhp + a decent dollop of axle snaping torque.

So I have a few options to try. :unsure:

1) Lithium IPU, Nimh MCM, HCH2 Civic DC-DC (That should give a system that will work at 200V and maybe a bit more) 30kw + zone! :devilish:

2) Lithium IPU, Nimh MCM, Lithium DC-DC (That should work upto 190V, the DC-DC being the limiting factor) 25kw + zone.

3) Nimh IPU, Nimh MCM, Lithium DC-DC (That should work upto 170V or so, the IPU being the limiting factor) 22kw + zone.

4) Nimh IPU, Nimh MCM, Nimh DC-DC (That works upto 150V, the DC-DC being the limiting factor) 20kw + zone.

I need to study the wiring and data captures now to further check compatibility.

Note the Lithium battery underneath the polystyrene foam in the pic below has the official capacity marked on it. (676Wh) Watt Hours.

63902
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,678 Posts
@PeterPerkins if I'm reading this right, we could potentially run a relatively MASSIVE battery through a combination of different bits and get power added just via more juice?

Asking because I"ve got a spare NiMH pack and it looks like I could theoretically just wire the two 100V NiMH packs together in series with a HCH2 Civic DC-DC ..........? Form factor notwithstanding of course.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
686 Posts
Discussion Starter · #87 ·
@PeterPerkins if I'm reading this right, we could potentially run a relatively MASSIVE battery through a combination of different bits and get power added just via more juice?

Asking because I"ve got a spare NiMH pack and it looks like I could theoretically just wire the two 100V NiMH packs together in series with a HCH2 Civic DC-DC ..........? Form factor notwithstanding of course.
My objective has always been to increase power Kw (Volts x Amps) by increasing voltage or current and preferably both!
The IMA motor will take a lot of abuse for shortish periods.

As the months of testing I have done show, the parts from the two cars have different tolerances to being overdriven etc.
In the absence of an unobtainium HPD setup we have to choose an optimum combination of available parts that gives us the best voltage/current combination.

Yes in theory you might be able to run a 220V (double) Nimh pack with an HCH2 DC-DC and Lithium IPU module, but as you know it's not as simple as that.
A lot of work would have to be done to fool the Nimh MCM into accepting such a high voltage pack without throwing errors.. The Lithium IPU might not work at such a high voltage..

Fitting it all in safely and wiring it up would be another serious problem.

My plan now is consolidate and analyse the data I have gathered to see if the mixed Lithium/Nimh parts will work together.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
686 Posts
Discussion Starter · #89 · (Edited)
Today data analysis has confirmed the Lithium IPU/MPI module outputs the same size/type packets and data stream as the Nimh one. (y)
Ditto the Lithium DC-DC Converter, the data stream it sends and receives is the same as the Nimh version.

Of course until you try and run it we don't know if the info in the packets is the same/format/place etc but it looks compatible for now.. :unsure:
That's all excellent news for the Frankenstein peak power pack project. :devilish:

The Lithium MPI/DC-DC should talk OK with the Nimh MCM module.
The other important wiring also looks compatible.

I don't see any reason at this time why a hackable Nimh Car MCM module cannot drive and control a Lithium MPI and Lithium or HCH2 DC-DC.

That gives us our extra 40 or 70 volts of headroom for more cells and higher system voltage. (190V or 220V) (25-30 Kw+) :cool:

The modules layout, sizes, connectors, wire colours and pinouts are very different inside the IPU/IMA assemblies.
The Frankenharness will have to be very carefully hacked together from a Nimh and Lithium one..

The thing to do might be build a complete new IMA assembly on a piece of 1/4 aluminium alloy plate or something that bolts to the two OEM support bars.
Start with a blank plate and then cut/drill holes in it etc to accept the modules parts as it is assembled.
So you would end up with something completely non OEM looking a bit like the HPD unobtanium setup.

For now I have put the OEM Lithium pack back together. :)

I want to finalise the simple Nimh/Lithium OEM pack swap project as soon as I get the UK Lithium car data before I start tearing up my Lithium OEM pack!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
68 Posts
Wow, lots of good info here. While I already own a car with a lithium battery, it is interesting to see where this goes. There are a couple of locals here that are waiting anxiously to do a swap to lithium if at all possible without issues.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
686 Posts
Discussion Starter · #92 ·
I did over 300 relaxing trouble free miles with the Nimh car and Lithium oem pack today.
I still need the OEM data as you know to get rid of the pesky error, but it certainly works fine.
Cruise control, all the various modes etc, all 100% (y)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,678 Posts
I can not wait to buy a module from you that will make the IMA light STFU once you get it sorted. I would not be able to live with the IMA light on constantly like that
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
686 Posts
Discussion Starter · #94 ·
Some months ago a generous UK ex CR-Z owner donated some very useful and expensive CAN analysis software and hardware to me for this research. (y)
I have just managed now to get it fully updated and working on my desk machine.

Phew (PCAN Explorer 5) it's bloody complicated. o_O

My brain is exploding already, I need to watch the training videos and RTFM....

But in time as I get the hang of it, it will be a lot better than my previous CAN gathering feature feeble software...
The sky looks like the limit and I'm sure it will help us unravel a few more CR-Z secrets. ;)
 

·
Registered
2011 CR-Z GT-Navi Milano Red
Joined
·
116 Posts
The MPG figure didn’t drop during acceleration. Is it long term or just disabled?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Short acceleration video from the 30kw IMA testing in my G1 insight.. :devilish:


The CR-Z should easily be able to match this with the right tweaks and hacks. :cool:
I timed your 30-70mph as about 8 seconds, possibly a bit less. Some info I found on the lithium Z quoted its 30-70 time as 8.7 seconds, so 8 seconds from an G1 insight is impressive indeed.

I don't think the gearing on the manual Z will allow you to get to 70 without changing to third, as I think it hits the limiter (or red line, can't remember which) at about 60mph in second, but the same power increase on the Z should make for a fun second gear run :cool:.
 
81 - 99 of 99 Posts
Top