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Would happily support you on this one Peter but I'm down on the south coast near Brighton.
Hopefully some one closer with a Lithium can step up and help out.
meanwhile I'm over here in the Midwest US thinking... it's only a 5h drive what's the big deal, I do that like once a month :ROFLMAO:

Also you guys actually have a real lockdown for covid. Maybe you two can meet in Cambridge.

@PeterPerkins are you on the CR-Z UK owners facebook group? I've seen you on the CRZ society page I think, but there's one specifically fot UK owners that I'm sure has a wider audience than the forum.
 

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There is a group in Netherlands that can work with CaN
Can't believe this is what we doing



Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter · #63 · (Edited)
Some notes from today's 50 mile test drive. No unexpected behavior or new errors etc. (y)

I managed to get my OBDIIC&C working in a reduced fashion, so I was able to watch pack voltage, current, SOC etc.
Still needs lots of work with an HDS in the car to sort out the OEM Lithium parameters...

Some Nimh/Lithium differences are apparent and I think this Lithium pack is def showing its age,
or the fact it has been sat unused since the accident which wrote off the car in December 2020.

The reported SOC operating range is 40-80%

It won't go below 40% as all assist stops when it gets that low.
It won't go above 80% as all regen stops at that level.

Note the useable capacity is currently showing as 45%. This figure is the % of the original capacity that is available.
So if we assume the cells are ~5ah when new then I have 2.25Ah available. :unsure:

If we then assume that 2.25ah is the 0-100% SOC that means I have 40% of that available between 40-80% which equals ~0.9ah.....

Presently we don't know what the useable capacity for a new OEM Lithium pack is after a 'battery reset' but it could be 75% or perhaps 100%.
My seat of the pants dyno did suggest the capacity and duration was not especially high. (About the same as my Supercaps in fact).

Also the pack has a surprisingly high internal resistance and sagged by 20V from 150V at 85A when cold.
That is about 1.7kw lost due to resistance in the pack/system etc.
This improved later as it warmed up to a 10V sag at 85A.
This is at least twice as much sag/IR as my Supercap pack which was operating at much higher currents upto 150A.

85A was the highest current in any scenario and the voltage was about 140V so that equals about 12kw.
Lower peak power than expected. But that may be due to the system dialling back the power as the pack ages and useable SOC goes down..
Lets see what happens when the glitches are all ironed out and the system is reset. (y)
 

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F-CAN Circuit Troubleshooting

1. Turn the ignition switch to LOCK (0).

2. Jump the SCS line with the HDS.

3. Disconnect ECM/PCM connector A (44P), then disconnect the HDS.

4. Measure the resistance between ECM/PCM connector terminals A36 and A37.


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Is there about 48-59 Ohms?

YES -

Go to step 18.

NO -

Go to step 5.

5. Disconnect these connectors:

- Gauge control module 32P See: Instrument Cluster / Carrier > Removal and Replacement > Gauge Control Module Replacement
- VSA modulator-control unit 32P See: Traction Control Module > Removal and Replacement > VSA Modulator-Control Unit Removal/Installation
- Yaw rate-acceleration sensor 4P See: Yaw Rate Sensor > Removal and Replacement > Yaw Rate-Acceleration Sensor Replacement
- EPS control unit A (11P) See: Steering Control Module > Removal and Replacement > EPS Control Unit Removal/Installation
- SRS unit A (39P) See: Air Bag Control Module > Removal and Replacement > SRS Unit Replacement
- TPMS control unit 20P See: Tire Pressure Module > Removal and Replacement > TPMS Control Unit Replacement
- Motor control module (MCM) A (31P) See: Drive Motor Control Module > Removal and Replacement > Motor Control Module (MCM) Removal/Installation

6. Check for continuity between ECM/PCM connector terminals A36 and A37.


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Is there continuity?

YES -

Repair a short in the wire between ECM/PCM terminals A36 and A37.

NO -

Go to step 7.

7. Check for continuity between ECM/PCM connector terminal A36 and gauge control module 32P connector terminal No. 19.


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Is there continuity?

YES -

Go to step 8.

NO -

Repair an open in the wire between the ECM/PCM (A36) and the gauge control module.

8. Check for continuity between ECM/PCM connector terminal A36 and VSA modulator-control unit 32P connector terminal No. 6.


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2011 Honda CR-Z

L4-1.5L Hybrid




ECM/PCM Update



ECM/PCM UPDATE
ECM/PCM Update

Special Tools Required


- Honda Diagnostic System (HDS) tablet tester
- Honda Interface Module (HIM) and an iN workstation with the latest HDS software version
- HDS pocket tester
- GNA600 and an iN workstation with the latest HDS software version
- MVCI unit with the latest control module (CM) update software installed
*Available through the Honda Tool and Equipment Program at 888-424-6857.

Any one of the above updating tools can be used.

NOTE:

- Make sure the HDS/iN workstation or the MVCI has the latest HDS software version.
- Before you update the ECM/PCM, make sure the 12 volt battery in the vehicle is fully charged, and connect a jumper battery (not a battery charger) to maintain system voltage.
- Never turn the ignition switch to ACCESSORY (I) or to LOCK (0) during the update. If there is a problem with the update, leave the ignition switch turned to ON (II).
- To prevent ECM/PCM damage, do not operate anything electrical (headlights, navigation, brakes, A/C, power windows, door locks, etc.) during the update.
- To ensure the latest program is installed, do a ECM/PCM update whenever the ECM/PCM is substituted or replaced.
- You cannot update an ECM/PCM with a program it already has. It will only accept a new program.
- High temperature in the engine compartment might cause the ECM/PCM to become too hot to run the update. If the engine was running before the update, open the hood and cool the engine compartment.
- If you need to diagnose the Honda interface module (HIM) because the HIM's red (#3) light came on or was flashing during the update, leave the ignition switch in ON (II) when you disconnect the HIM from the data link connector (DLC). This will prevent damage to the ECM/PCM.

1. Turn the ignition switch to ON (II), but do not start the engine.

2. Connect the HDS to the data link connector (DLC) (A) located under the driver's side of the dashboard.


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3. Make sure the HDS communicates with the ECM/PCM and all other vehicle systems. If it doesn't, go to the DLC circuit troubleshooting See: Data Link Connector > Component Tests and General Diagnostics > DLC Circuit Troubleshooting (IMA System). If you are returning from the DLC circuit troubleshooting, skip step 4 and 5, then clean the throttle body after updating the ECM/PCM.

4. Select the INSPECTION MENU with the HDS.

5. Select the ETCS TEST, then select the TP POSITION CHECK, and follow the HDS screen prompts.

NOTE: If the TP POSITION CHECK indicates FAILED, continue this procedure.

6. Exit the HDS diagnostic system, then select the update mode, and follow the screen prompts to update the ECM/PCM.

7. If the software in the ECM/PCM is the latest, disconnect the updating tool from the DLC, then go back to the procedure that you were doing. If the software in the ECM/PCM is not the latest, follow the instructions on the screen. If prompted to choose the PGM-FI system or the CVT system, make sure you update both.

NOTE: If the ECM/PCM update system requires you to cool the ECM/PCM, follow the instructions on screen. If you have a problem during the update procedure (programming takes over 15 minutes, status bar goes over 100 %, D or immobilizer indicator flashes, HDS tablet freezes, etc.), follow these steps to minimize the chance of damaging the ECM/PCM.

- Leave the ignition switch in ON (II).
- Connect a jumper battery (do not connect a battery charger).
- Shut down the updating tool.
- Disconnect the updating tool from the DLC.
- Reboot the updating tool.
- Reconnect the updating tool to the DLC, and try the update procedure again.

8. If the TP POSITION CHECK failed in step 5, clean the throttle body See: Throttle Body > Procedures > Throttle Body Cleaning.

9. Do the ECM/PCM idle learn procedure See: Engine Control Module > Programming and Relearning > ECM/PCM Idle Learn Procedure.

10. Do the CKP pattern clear/CKP pattern learn procedure.

11. Select the CVT SYSTEM, then reset the PCM with the HDS.

RELATED INFORMATION

Locations

Parts and Labor

Service and Repair

Testing and Inspection
 

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Advanced Diagnostics - DTC P16D7: PCM Internal F-CAN Communication Circuit Malfunction


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General Description
The controller area network (CAN) transmits/receives pulsing signals to/from the control modules simultaneously by using two signal lines (F-CAN H and F-CAN L). When F-CAN communication between the FI CPU and the CVT CPU inside the powertrain control module (PCM) is abnormal and F-CAN communication is interrupted for a specified time, the PCM detects a malfunction and stores a DTC.

Monitor Execution, Sequence, Duration, DTC Type, OBD Status


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Enable Conditions


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Malfunction Threshold
No signals from the FI CPU via the F-CAN are received for at least 1.5 seconds.

Driving Pattern
Turn the ignition switch to ON (II), and wait for at least 5 seconds.

Diagnosis Details

Conditions for setting the DTC

When a malfunction is detected, the D indicator blinks, and a Pending DTC, a Confirmed DTC, and the freeze data are stored in the PCM memory. The MIL does not come on.

Conditions for clearing the DTC
The Pending DTC, the Confirmed DTC, and the freeze data can be cleared with the scan tool Clear command or by disconnecting the battery.
RELATED INFORMATION

Testing and Inspection
 

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Discussion Starter · #67 ·
JJ thanks for the documents but the problem is not an electrical one or anything covered by HDS type diagnostics.
I already have access to the HDS stuff thanks.

It is missing or incorrect packets on the FCAN bus due to the fact I am using a Lithium Pack with Lithium PCM/MCM in a Nimh car with NImh ECM etc.
As mentioned I need to gather FCAN data from a working Lithium car and compare it with a working Nimh car.

Then I can spoof CAN packets etc to cover up/fudge any differences between the two.

I have already identified some differences in the data stream but I need the full data from a working lithium car,
hence my request for a UK volunteer locally with one I can plug into.

I'm hoping I should be able to go a visit a UK owner with one in the next week or so. (y)
 

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now that I am up to speed with the reading what you have done. You are using a desktop computer and not a scanner with freeze frame data readout. Freeze frame is actually built into all OBDII cars. the freeze frame data gives you information on your missing info. such as why you are getting your error code.
the nice little graphs in my screengrab are the PID list values read in milliseconds mapped out for a person to see the high and low of the signal voltage. That was only 1.5 minutes' worth.
this is not going to be found on any pc program or CAN sniffing pc program. Trust me I would not have spent $5,000 USD on my scanner if it wasn't worth buying


I currently think it is related to the different voltage at one or two terminals of your ECM. You are required to have specific volts there. too high or too low you have an error code.
Whether or not that is a result of how you loaded data onto the ECM or any reprograming that you did. I am not present to actually say. Most reflashing of ECM and sub-controllers (transmission, IMA unit) is down while it's in the vehicle with everything connected. I actually don't know why. ( I never actually asked) Perhaps it is because the vehicle is started directly afterwards.
Without the use of an oscilloscope, you will need a multimeter to back probe the plugs, getting voltage at the plug, not from the ECM. Your issue could simply be a loose connection. Meaning everything you did is 100% good.
 

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how do know that it's not a bad single voltage range? you just increased your battery output. This is called troubleshooting. which PID or plug has the bad range? I might be able to find that answer?

also, I fix diesel generators for the US Marine Corp. As my job. I am just trying to help you finish your project
 

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brain-picking question? Will or won't the packets from the NiMH battery work on the lithium battery? if I remember you said there are more on the Lithium battery? I am assuming (because I don't know the answer) The packets are there to maintain the battery charge or discharge rate? (correct)
 

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another brain-picking question? you mentioned using a more advanced Lithium battery. Is there a more advanced NiMH battery out there? Are you thinking of adding a second Hybrid battery pack?
 

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Discussion Starter · #74 · (Edited)
JJ. I appreciate your enthusiasm and willingness to help but you are still a bit out of the loop. ;)

Have a look at all my threads on the forum in the last six months.
That will take some time (days!) , there are quite a few, all are long and detailed, containing hundreds of posts with a mass of IMA technical info and discussion.

I've already done several documented CR-Z battery swaps including Lithium for Nimh, More power, Bigger cells, Higher Voltage, More Current, Supercapacitors etc etc.

My YT Channel has over 70 short videos done in the last six months documenting my research on the CR-Z since I acquired one.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCb9j8wfCWJ7CDiu-gtEjowQ/videos

In answer to your questions.

We won't know what will work in this particular scenario until I get the CAN data I need from a lithium car.

The multitude of CAN packets on the BUSSES contain an enormous amount of varied proprietary control information.
There is little information in the public domain. It's all closely guarded by Honda.
Very little of the CAN data is actually documented or fully understood.
However the packets certainly do contain charging and SOC data.

My understanding of the systems is based on over 15 years work on the Honda IMA systems and 40+ years building EVs etc.
A lot of the time I have to extrapolate or make an educated guess based on the above, but we are making a lot of progress as you will see in the threads. (y)

Once I have captured the Lithium car CAN data and analysed it I will report back with my findings.
 

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my enthusiasm comes from my job: working on customer's performance cars. YES, I want my Honda CR-Z to be faster without doing the usual K-series swap.
Since you think I have no idea of what I am doing. I will stop. I will wait for you to figure it out.

The troubleshooting information I got from ALLDATA, who buys their information from HONDA
 

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I have mentioned Alldata here before. It is a great resource just not sure if their DIY product and professional product are equivalent.

@PeterPerkins has done a lot of work if the two of you can get together it will help the whole community. You have the same passion just @PeterPerkins is focusing on adding performance and improving to the IMA system which he is is very familiar with. @PeterPerkins needs CAN Data from a working LI-ION car so he can compare the readings between that and the older cars to see if the information is the same so he can hack the new system battery to work in the old car. The person who needs to understand what he needs in all due respects is you JJ magnum318.

@PeterPerkins has provided a ton of information on all things IMA you need to read all of it and it will give you the education you are looking for on how to add performance to the IMA system. He is the Expert.

I find your posting a bit off topic and a bit rude. Off topic is fine rude is not. Please be respectful of each other.
 

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All very nice information of course, but the goal of a forum is to discuss stuff, right? Moreover, some people don’t have the time to read all threads of Peter and still want to ask questions or share thoughts. Other people might also know a lot about cars, like me. There are some smart people on here! That’s also JJ Magnum’s point, I think.

One cannot expect others to spend days reading/watching all information before posting. Furthermore, not allowing others to go slightly off topic is strange on a forum, in my opinion. If you post on a forum, others will join and the discussion might not go exactly as you want.

Please note that English is not my native language, so I might express myself in a relatively direct way. I am not trying to offend anyone and I am not mad/annoyed at all, but I just wanted to share my feelings. I will not post anymore in this topic to prevent spam, so don’t fear for that. ;)

Thanks for all the valuable information, Peter! I appreciate what you do for the CR-Z community.
 

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Discussion Starter · #78 ·
Language does create some difficulty even if we supposedly all speak 'English'.
There are many slight variations in meanings etc.

JJ. I have definitely not said you have no idea of what you are doing. :(
But you don't seem to understand what I actually need in this specific situation.
This may be due to mine or your language, or not being familiar with my previous work.

People can offer help of course, but if that is not what I need or they are on the wrong track I have to tell them or they are wasting their valuable time.
My information generally comes from Honda Factory/Dealer Tools so must be similar to the ALLDATA who get it from the same source (Honda).

Anyway back on topic. (y)
Let's wait for the results of my CAN data gathering on the UK Lithium car and see what that brings.
 

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Discussion Starter · #79 · (Edited)
Rather annoyingly it appears I forgot to do a full FCAN & IMACAN BUS capture prior to any first fiddling around with my CR-Z months ago. :(
Well I can't find the data if I did capture it ... :rolleyes:
So I will have to collect data from a Nimh as well as Lithium car for comparisons between the OEM Nimh & Lithium comms.

I'm still waiting for the UK Lithium car nearby to become available for testing.
(Luckily he has one of each, Lithium & Nimh, so I will be able to get data from both!)

I need to try and watch what happens when you press the +Sport button as well.
We might spot a packet with a subtle change that could be useful. (y)

Just made up a pass thru connector so I can simply plug into the rear IMA harness and sniff both CAN busses. :cool:
 
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