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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Can the later 15kw OEM Lithium CR-Z pack fit in, and work in, an earlier 10kw Nimh Car?

I've started this new thread to document the testing and research into this idea.
My other threads are getting larger every day so this really needs a new one to keep it manageable.

63747


Let's start with a few basic facts.

2013-2016 CR-Z. The 144V Lithium pack weighs 40kg. 144V x 5ah = 720 wh approx theoretical capacity.
2010-2012 CR-Z. The 100V Nimh pack weighs 36.5kg. 100V x 6ah = 600 wh approx theoretical capacity.

Usable capacity would be quite a bit less than the theoretical 100% SOC capacity.

+/- 0.5kg or so weight accuracy of my bathroom scales.

A cursory visual examination shows.

The battery mounting space, mounting holes, and the main motor power cable connections appear identical.
So the packs should fit and bolt into the same place in either car. The foam boot inserts etc might be a bit different but that's a minor issue.

The 12V+ power lead looks slightly longer in the Lithium car, but it can be extended in the Nimh cars to compensate and reach the DC-DC connector.

The main IPU harness connector is identical and either pack will plug into either car.

IPU Harness connector detailed look.

Having studied the wiring diagrams and connector pinouts for both cars they appear to have almost identical pinouts and connections.
There are a couple of minor wire colour difference which may be due to UK/US car changes but the functionality appears identical.
There is an extra GND wire shown on Pin 16 in the 2013 Lithium car diagram that is not present in the diagram for the 2011 Nimh car.
Note the wire is actually present in my Nimh car so we can likely ignore this or just add a GND wire if needed.

It certainly looks like you can plug the Lithium pack into a Nimh car and vice versa without them fusing circuits. (y)

Things that might trip us up.

Of course we have a multitude of other things that will conspire against us to prevent this being a simple 1hr swap.
The main thing being CAN comms between the ECM & MCM modules in the front and rear of the car.

If the messages are different/missing etc then it will be very tricky to make it work.

I found the 4 x BMS modules on the Lithium car are connected to the IMACAN bus and not the FCAN.
So there will be four extra ID's at least on the IMACAN bus.

I suspect the BMS modules are exchanging voltage/balancing information with the MCM module in the IMA pack and not the ECM at the front.
This means our old Nimh ECM at the front will likely simply ignore this extra chatter on the IMACAN bus ;)

Anyway attached are the IMA harness connector pinouts for both cars and the wiring diagrams..
 

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This is gonna get a whole lot more interesting.

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Another useful pdf with pinouts and description of the Lithium IMA system and operating principles/major components.

The initial plan now is power up the isolated Lithium IMA pack on the bench (Make it think car has been turned on)
Have a look at the ID's/info being transmitted by the pack on the FCAN and IMA CAN buses to see if we have any interesting newbies.

Then attach the Lithium ECM to the setup and watch comms on the two CAN busses again.
If the results look encouraging then chuck it into my car and see what happens!! :eek:
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
63753


Pack powered up on the bench and CAN sniffing..


I now have the basic turn on FCAN & IMACAN packets that the Lithium pack is sending out.
Now need to add the ECM and see what similarities we have with the Nimh pack.
 

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if you manage to do the swap using the OEM pack .. it will be the first in the crz community
 
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AND an answer to a frequently asked question.
Agreed.. most people are interested in the conversion but doesn't know how.

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
The IMACAN packets appearing on the bus sent from the Lithium pack are the same as the Nimh packets except...

ID 201, 202, 203, 204 These are the Lithium BMS boards ID's and the packets contain the voltage information. (Not an issue the Nimh ECM will ignore them)

There is one other extra packet ID 501 which occurs once a second.

Hopefully this is the cell balancing command packet so will only be relevant to the BMS boards...
(Again hopefully the ECM will ignore this)

Need to check the FCAN now and add the Lithium ECM into the mix.. o_O
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I have the Lithium ECM and OEM Lithium IMA pack chatting away and have captured routine traffic on the FCAN and IMACAN busses from IGN turn on.
I now need to compare that with the Nimh version. It looks very similar at first glance so fingers crossed. :unsure:

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All good news so far, it seems. :)

It’s also interesting to read that the weight difference between the batteries is about 3,5 kg. I thought it would be more. Do you happen to know the prices of the two types of OEM hybrid batteries?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
We have some sensible CANBUS comparison data. (y)

I set up both my bench OEM CR-Z systems (NIMH & Lithium)
Each had the ECM talking to the matched MCM on both FCAN & IMACAN.
I captured a snapshot of each BUS and combined them into the attached pdf with a few notes.

The gist of it is, It's definitely worth installing the OEM Lithium pack into the Nimh the car and seeing what happens. :unsure:

We have established the Nimh and the Lithium pack setups are electrically compatible (harness connectors/pinouts etc)
So it should not blow up or fuse things. I would say the chances of it working unmodified are 40/60 against..

More detailed analysis of the IMACAN data shows....

1) On the Lithium IMACAN bus there are 5 extra packets (4 are the BMS boards) and 1 is possibly the cell balancing command.
2) The other IMACAN packet ID's and transmission intervals match 100% between the systems.
3) The common packets are the same length on both systems. (Whether they contain the same data in the same positions is another matter!)

More detailed analysis of the FCAN data shows....

1) On the Lithium FCAN bus there are a couple of extra Lithium packets and a couple of missing Nimh packets. We don't know what these do.
2) The other IMACAN packet ID's and transmission intervals match 99% between the systems. Some small variations in transmission intervals.
3) The common packets are the same length on both systems. (Whether they contain the same data in the same positions is another matter!)

Some things I thought about that might easily mess us up.

A) Packet data from the two systems not in the same format, place,scale etc etc etc :oops:
(We are screwed!)

B) Extra (non common) packets sent by the Lithium MCM not being acknowledged by the Nimh ECM and vice versa.
(We might be able to add a dumb CAN device to just acknowledge unwanted messages on the BUS)

C) Swapping in the Lithium MCM really means the IMA rotor calibration procedure should be carried out with the HDS tool
However the HDS software might not like the fact we have a Nimh ECM and a Lithium MCM.
If we can't get to the appropriate screen in the HDS menu then we cannot do the procedure.
We might be able to ignore it as the Lithium MCM will have a completed rotor procedure stored but it will be for a different car.

I will remove the IMAC&C manual control stuff and any other gadgets for initial testing.
(The OBDIIC&C display can probably remain as that is just mainly listening)

It will be an OEM swap over so we get a sensible first test that is reproducible..
If that works then we can gradually add stuff back in.
 

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In but not fully connected up yet.. :)


U,V,W Motor phase wires need slight modification to reach reversed orientation IPU module connections.
12V Feed wire and screen need extending to reach connections.
Looking good I liked how it bolted in no problem..

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Can someone with access to an online Honda parts catalog please look up the part numbers for the Nimh and Lithium motor phase wires assemblies.
If they are not the same that may well indicate the Lithium ones are different (longer).

Now of course I wish I had got the orange motor wire cable assembly from the crashed Lithium, car!!! :rolleyes:
 

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Can someone with access to an online Honda parts catalog please look up the part numbers for the Nimh and Lithium motor phase wires assemblies.
If they are not the same that may well indicate the Lithium ones are different (longer).
NiMH cars - Part number 1F010-RTW-003
Lithium cars - Part number 1F018-RTW-G03
 

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Maybe this question has been discussed before, but I couldn’t find it. Do all CR-Zs (NIMH and Lithium) have to same IMA electric motor?
 

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Maybe this question has been discussed before, but I couldn’t find it. Do all CR-Zs (NIMH and Lithium) have to same IMA electric motor?
Just checked the online parts catalogue and it lists the motor and housing as fitting 2011-2016 (will also fit 2010, but I'm looking at a northamerican catalogue where there was no 2010 crz)
 
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