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Discussion Starter #21 (Edited)
NiMH cars - Part number 1F010-RTW-003
Lithium cars - Part number 1F018-RTW-G03
Thanks for that do we have any links to pics? That might show a physical difference.

Note the IMA motors themselves are def the same. (Good for 35kw in the racing CR-Z) :eek:
 

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Discussion Starter #23 (Edited)
In and working! (Stage 1)

I cobbled in the motor phase and 12V connecting wires for this initial test and it started straight away with the IMA as normal. :)
Of course we have an expected IMA error at the moment, but it is not fatal, and the IMA all still works Assist/Regen etc including the 12v charging etc.

So this is an almost OEM CR-Z Lithium setup for now..

No current hack. (This can be implemented in the same way as for the Nimh pack)
No voltage fooling. (Probably not required for Lithium)
No temperature fooling. (Probably not advisable for Lithium Polymer!)
No manual control. (This can be as for the Nimh pack)
No +S Plus Sport Button. (Manual control WOT mode etc take the place of this)

I suspect the OEM Lithium will be significantly less powerful than my 20kw+ Supercap hacked system I have just taken out.. LOL
But very interesting for development and understanding the system, as well as a potential simple +5kw swap for those with poor NIMH packs.

Useable capacity reported as 52%. Battery SOC 56%. (Maybe not the healthiest OEM Lithium pack in the world!)
But I do have a big stack of brand new identical cells just imported from the US so I could swap them all out.. Hmmm... :unsure:

I need to plug in my HDS now, talk to the car and find out what is bugging the IMA.
I suspect missing or extra non critical CAN packets or lack of response/acknowledgement from the Nimh ECM on one of the busses.

I'll go for a much longer test drive tomorrow.

It's been a long day (up since 5.30AM) and I have also fitted a customers G1 Insight with a new pack today as well as doing the CR-Z pack swap!!!!
Time to chill with a large glass of something alcoholic, vintage and reassuringly expensive. (y)


EDIT.

If you start looking for a junkyard Lithium CR-Z OEM pack now get the orange cable pack, boot foam inserts and any other little bits as well.
Although installing the orange cable from front to back underneath the car etc might be a royal PITA.
 

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What I dont get is how is Peter able to simply swap to Lithium and no one prior even thought about it in years

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Discussion Starter #29 (Edited)
What I don't get is how is Peter able to simply swap to Lithium and no one prior even thought about it in years
Several factors have influenced this.

1) The 'IMA' system was warrantied for a long time in many countries 7/10/15 years and many miles.(y)
This actively discouraged potentially expensive tinkering in case it broke, then people would be stuck likely minus a warranty payout.

2) The''IMA' system is good at looking after itself and fudging data with software service 'updates'. :rolleyes:
Most people will not have noticed the slow inexorable decline in Kw output and duration of their IMA pack.

3) 'IMA' always signalled difficult and dangerous, so people (especially commercial tuners) shied away from it, and went with traditional engine based techniques.
With sensible precautions and skills you can do quite a bit of electronic performance tinkering as per my various threads. :cool:
 

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Discussion Starter #30 (Edited)
Attached are the full DTC code lists for the IMA (MCM) and PGMFI (ECM) for the 2013 CR-Z (I might be needing these later!)

Currently trying to get the 2013 Lithium car capable HDS software working on my laptop. :rolleyes:

I might have to lug my desktop PC, monitor, keyboard and mouse outside into my car on the drive LOL!!
 

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Several factors have influenced this.
4) The IMA system is also super expensive if something goes wrong and some of us are peasants. 😛

Joking aside really loving following all your work on this (and all your other IMA information and experimentation) and being given the prospect of an option to swap is excellent prospect, especially as the Nimh cars are getting up there in age. Absolutely fantastic work PeterPerkins.
 

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The plugs on the battery packs are different also aren't they ?
How did you manage to make it work?

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Although installing the orange cable from front to back underneath the car etc might be a royal PITA.
Yeah, not fun but doable. I've replaced fuel hardlines before that run the length of the car and up the firewall one solid piece and those seem more fragile than this giant orange cable so it should be alright even for those with just jack stands (and patience).
 

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Useable capacity reported as 52%. Battery SOC 56%. (Maybe not the healthiest OEM Lithium pack in the world!)
But I do have a big stack of brand new identical cells just imported from the US so I could swap them all out.. Hmmm... :unsure:

I need to plug in my HDS now, talk to the car and find out what is bugging the IMA.
I suspect missing or extra non critical CAN packets or lack of response/acknowledgement from the Nimh ECM on one of the busses.
If you swap out the cells I hope we get to see some photos of that process!

Also are you using an official HDS or one of the clones?
 

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Discussion Starter #36 (Edited)
I want higher performance (30kw+) out of the system eventually. (If HPD did 35kw then so can we!) :eek:

My likely plan once I have the OEM Lithium stock pack working properly in the Nimh car without errors, will be to pull it out and do some mods.
What they will be exactly I don't know yet it's far too early in this initial testing phase....

As mentioned it might be a Frankenstein pack made up of some hardware from both the OEM Lithium and Nimh cars..

i.e. The Lithium IGBT module, the Lithium DC-DC converter. (These have a higher voltage rating than the Nimh versions)

The Nimh MCM to drive the above modules as we already know a lot about this and can fake loads of stuff.

The battery will likely be lightweight Frankenpack Lithium Polymer 40-60S and 2P setup for double the capacity. at around 9-10Ah.
I may well use a 60S Orion2 BMS that I have kicking about.
 

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Discussion Starter #38 (Edited)
So I lugged my desktop computer out to the car and set it up with a 17" Tesla style screen.... LOL
I captured the IMA and ECM Data lists and the error data.


I was expecting a few IMA codes but amazingly there is only one stored in each module (MCM/ECM).

They relate to the extra/missing packets on the FCAN bus I spotted with the Lithium desk setup.
It looks like the Gauge cluster is complaining about missing packets from the MCM, and the ECM is complaining about a missing packet from the MCM.

If packets are sent on the bus and not acknowledged by at least one receiver that will give a CAN error, as the sender will continually re transmit the data waiting for an acknowledgement.
The modules will only acknowledge what they have been programmed too, so there are a couple of packets floating about with no home and a couple of missing ones that need sending.

I already have my OBDIIC&C connected to the FCAN, so I think for starters I will simply program it to acknowledge the extra packets,
and squirt out the missing packets as per the format/intervals from the earlier captured data.

Unsurprisingly I wasn't able to do the rotor position calibration or reset the useable battery capacity due to the stored DTC's.
I'll be able to complete that once I have got rid of the codes..

Time for a test drive. (y)

Attached is the captured HDS data and DTC errors..
It's a zip file containing four XPS files. Rename from PDF to ZIP then extract it.

Also attached are a couple of advanced diagnostic info files covering these errors.

As there are no errors on the IMACAN line I think we can surmise that the IMAC&C Manual control joystick KERS gadget will plug in an operate as is with just a little firmware tweak to account for the extra 5 BMS related packets which we can ignore.
 

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Discussion Starter #39
50 mile test drive report.

Yawn!!! Not much to say it all worked as expected, no glitches or issues.
I would say performance of the OEM Lithium pack falls neatly between the old Nimh and my 20kw Supercaps...
So a good fairly simple power upgrade for a tired old Nimh setup if you can find a scrapyard OEM Lithium pack..

The Lithium setup does have a power rationing/counting/time system which probably becomes more restrictive as the pack ages.
I had one steep hill to climb and a long period of max assist in 6th meant assist stopped after about 20 seconds.
After about 20 seconds you could have more assist but it shut off quicker.
There is a calculation going on re amount of power versus time, and it will only allow so much in a certain time.
Once I have reset the useable capacity etc that may improve a bit if the cells will sustain it...

If this calculation/control is in the ECM then we can override it with the IMAC&C Manual control. If it isn't we can't.

The IMA fan was like a leaf blower (matched to the engine rpm) for the first ten miles as the batteries were very cold 3C,and it was working hard to warm them up with cabin air.
I cranked up the cabin to 25C to help warm it, and after a few miles the fan went back to normal speeds.

I captured some driving FCAN data to confirm which packets I need to acknowledge/send, so it's now onto programming a gizmo to do that and get rid of the IMA light.
 

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Peter, you'll be CRZ royalty before this is over, lol.

What I dont get is how is Peter able to simply swap to Lithium and no one prior even thought about it in years
Several factors have influenced this.
I'll add another factor: we just didn't have the right madlad with the skills, means, and time until now.
I would say performance of the OEM Lithium pack falls neatly between the old Nimh and my 20kw Supercaps...
So a good fairly simple power upgrade for a tired old Nimh setup if you can find a scrapyard OEM Lithium pack..
When you say "power upgrade" do you mean in terms of the car having more "pep" from the drivetrain or in terms of being able to hold assist for more time?
 
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