HCH Lawsuit: Why Honda may of been conservative on CR-Z MPG

[Scotty001]

Not sure exactly what goes into MPG claims on the sticker. I see quite a few Forum members averaging 40 and above. For me and driving conditions here, I am right in the MPG claim window on average. But I can get 40+ on the highway without any effort (Econ/Cruise). Still though, a lot of you guys getting way over on average it seems.

Being a previous 07 Civic Hybrid owner, I just received a class action lawsuit claim form for the 07 associated with overstated MPG claims for it. 100 bucks if I file.. It is for all 2003-2009 Honda Civic Hybrids. Probably adds up. Might of been in part why they were conservative above and beyond the new rules that were put into place a while back.

Just thought it was kind of interesting..

Edit, actually the 07 claim is good for 200 bucks.. I was pretty happy with the Civic.. In the past, have never really taken MPG claims in stone. Not sure I want to claim. Silly maybe but a Karma thing.

[TCroly]

That is interesting about the class action lawsuit, but I believe that the EPA mileage posted on the car is a function of independent EPA tests. I know that Toyota designs the specific shift points and hybrid assist on the Prius to maximize fuel efficiency in the very tightly controlled EPA test cycle and I do not think Honda does the same. As a result, Honda's seemed to be tuned for best results in more real world conditions than simply for producing the best economy in EPA test conditions.

[Scotty001]

^ Yea, that was what I was kind of thinking. But, after a bit of research, the lawsuit is legit.. The manufacturer may be responsible for doing the test, but has a EPA ruleset they are supposed to follow?

[JnC]

To my understanding, the basis of the complaint was that there was an ongoing change performed by Honda that significantly impacted the mpg. In this case it was a firmware reflash of the ECU. Apparently there was some issue with the hybrid battery capacity and longevity concerns about running it too low. So the regeneration was reprogrammed to occur at a higher voltage than when the car was sold. After the reflash, it would run less from the electric assist and had to rely more upon the gas engine to maintain charge. And these cars were tested under the old EPA hybrid test cycles, which at the time were overrated and that didn't help.

Summary: Honda hybrid cars that were marketed to be fifty mpg, were actually in the forties range, and after the reflash fell to the thirties. And when some customers experienced a ~10 mpg hit due to the reflash, they were quite upset that the cars no longer performed in the way that they were used to.

Fortunately for us, this issue was known when the CR-Z was being designed and the battery capacity and IMA generator were not carry-overs from the Civic Hybrid.
The backstory is better described here: Civic Hybrid battery issues: same for CRZ?

What gets my goat with how today's cars are advertised, is that they fail to mention that the "40 mpg" score is solely hwy mpg. The combined tank score is much lower. And to be frank, the drivability of these normally aspirated eco-engines are annoying weak off the line. Once you're used to the torque of a turbo or in our case, electric assist, it's tough to go back to a basic eco-engine.

[Scotty001]

Thanks for the additional Information..

I remember going in for a flash but don't remember it really impacting my mileage. I never got the 50 and as stated, never really expected to. I was doing about the same as I get in the CR-Z. There are two parts to this suite 1) the mileage claims which appears to be for 2003-2009 and then a sub class which is for the IMA 2006-2008. Each one offering 100 dollars = having a 07 and the flash, 200 for me if I file..

I dunno - as stated, was pretty happy with the Civic.. Met my expectations. But, two hundred can make for a nice night out on the town..

[rjjensen]

i think they were conservative with the estimate but why with the crz?...they were not conservative with the civic unless the battery issues mentioned

[Saibot]

Funny, i actually read about the honda civic hybrid lawsuit yesterday in a canadian newspaper lol.

Civic hybrid owner to battle mighty Honda - thestar.com

turns out if you take honda to small claims court youd probably get more than 200 bucks. more like around 10k cus you dont need to pay the lawyer or anything.

[TCroly]

WOW this is a serious problem and will probably end up hurting CRZ resale values and Honda's reputation in the hybrid industry.

The facts appear to be that Honda began to see premature failures of IMA batteries and then issued a recall to program cars to be less agressive in their use of IMA in order to make batteries last longer. This programing change appears to have reduce the fuel economy of the reprogramed vehicles. How much it hurts the fuel economy is a matter of debate, but let's assume it hurts it by a maximum of 5 mpg. Such a reduction from say 45 mpg to 40 mpg would have the car use as much as 250 more gallons of fuel over the course of 100,000 miles. That would be a maximum of $1000 in greater fuel costs over the life of the car.

But lawsuits like this are never about the facts. They are about greedy lawyers and plaintiffs looking for personal gain at the expense of the big bad corporation. And in the end the public perception generally sides with the plantifs. As a result, the corporation and their products are vilified. And the fallout is the loss of business and for other consumers like us CRZ owner's it the loss of value of our car's by relationship to the affected vehicles.

I could see this comimg last year when I heard about people complaining about how the reprograming of their car's was leading to lower fuel economy. I think Honda is doing the right thing offering some compensation, but the idea of hundreds or thousands of small claims actions is going to be a public relations nightmare.

[Scotty001]

Yea - was on NBC prime time news and an article on MSNBC.

Honda sued over mileage in small claims court - Business - Autos - msnbc.com

I may file for the 200 just because - still thinking about it - might of lost that amount in 08 with the gas prices if at all, but small claims at 10K - not that much of a frustrated biatch.

[holeydonut]

Lol this reminds me of the story that originates back in the 90s when the EPA used the same procedure to test every single car. The EPA was silly enough to publish the precise pattern for everybody to read:

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/emisslab/methods/ftpcol.txt

A clever ECU calibrations engineer at one of the automakers decided to program the computer to have a "backup" fuel curve when the first leg of the EPA procedure was followed. Basically upon starting the cold engine the car's ECU would check vehicle speed to see if the # of seconds passed matched the pattern (with some degree of variability) the EPA's mpg test.

If detected, the car would go into a "mpg miser" mode specifically designed to boost the MPG during the EPA test. Obviously the car would not perform very well in terms of acceleration, but very few customers would exactly mimic the MPG and timing of the EPA test. And since the EPA has to test one of the early batches of cars, the ECU programming could be updated halfway through the model year and really no customers were overtly affected.

Of course they saw an MPG sticker on the window that was total rubbish. But them's the breaks. As they say in racing; if you ain't cheating then you ain't trying.