Ok, now i am pissed!

[VTEC Mini]

Yesterday, I got a call from my wife that when she was taking the kids to day care, she went over some railroad tracks and all of a sudden she heard some rattling but kept driving for a short distance because she thought it was another car until the car died (This is a 2002 Honda Civic).

The car got towed to the dealer where it was determined that the timing belt had jumped. The thing is- we just replaced it 20K miles ago at 80K miles. Then to add to it they said it was out of warranty. They said it appears the belt does have tension on it and the belt looks like new still. I asked them what caused it to jump and there reply was, "I don't know." I asked him about the valves and once again he said, "I don't know." I told him to go find out.

Today I got a call and he said it The valves where bent and would cost 2K to fix. WTF? I asked again if they found the route cause of failure. He said, "We don't know but maybe the tensioner.. it seams like it could be a little weak" I said so let me get this straight, "You want me to put 2K into a car and don't know what caused the failure in the first place? Whats to stop it from happening again the minute I pull out of the parking lot?" There was a pause.. I told him how we bought the car there, had all of it's repairs and service done there, how we spent over three grand in four months there with the CRX, and how we bought a brand new CR-Z there three months ago and you want to take me for 2K and drive out with an "I don't know."

I took a deep breath because I was shaking I was so pissed.

I then asked, "What does the top of the pistons look like?"

His answer- " I don't know......"

I WENT APE ****!!!

I had to hang up.... My wife called back the service representative and asked to talk to the manager. Wouldn't you know it- he's on vacation.

So I am going to have go do a face to face.

Any thoughts?

[TampaTodd]

I'd be hot too.

If you're going to the dealer, deal with the General Manager if the Service Manager isn't available. Especially if it's the same dealer you bought the car from.

And definitely make a scene if you don't get what you want. I usually find they get a lot more cooperative when you start screaming in front of other customers. (note: this should be last resort )

[Whocares05050]

Who did the belt replacement 20k miles ago? If it was honda, they carry a 1 year warranty on all the work and parts performed.

It truly sucks that this happened to you. No one, and i mean no one, is ready for big car repairs. If the valves are bent, the pistons could be screwed up too....


The cheapest route for you to go, in all honestly, would to probably find a salvaged motor and swap it in. Not too hard too do with a couple buddies if you are mechanically inclined and you can even rent a engine stand for less than 150. Save yourself the labor of putting it in, and the motor complete should be between 1500-3500.

Atleast you will not be playing the guessing game and have other things go wrong destroying it again...

As with anything though, its all mechanics. Its a motor. These things do happen every day. Just because you spend thousands in one place, dosnt mean they should replace this engine or top end for free/discounted. They are in business to make money and the car is after all almost 10 years old. nothing is guaranteed.

Another possible thing to keep in mind, is that with older Hondas, that when you replace the belt, you HAVE to replace the tensioner. its a must. This is the exact reason why. Ive known many, many Honda motors that blew there motors all becuase of the tensioner wasnt changed when it was due. usually at 75k miles is when i always changed them. 80k, i think, is what the manual calls for. 20k miles ago, was the tensioner replaced along with the belt?

The service writer probably dosnt know, as he said. the mechanic may not either. You have to tear apart the head and physically look at the pistons to see what other damage is caused. Again, they are not in business for free... inspection/diagnostic takes time and money.

I think, you may be over reacting a bit here. Im sorry, i really am, but **** happens. I would call them up, set up an appointment for the service manager, be real calm and cool and see if theres a better price they can do. If not, go somewhere else. Honda is a dealership after all and go by book time to the T. Other shops can save you some money and there are a ton out there that know what they are doing too.

Her cars no longer new, and way past warranty. even a highly maintained car an have issues. Please dont take what i said the worng way, i only mean the best.

Keep us updated as to what you end up doing.

*Edit - If yo bought the car used, from this dealer, and not in 02, then this changes everything. You should also, on a used car, have an extended or certified warranty coverage up to a certain time period. Not sure since i dont have all the information.

[Whocares05050]

Originally Posted by TampaTodd

I'd be hot too.

If you're going to the dealer, deal with the General Manager if the Service Manager isn't available. Especially if it's the same dealer you bought the car from.

And definitely make a scene if you don't get what you want. I usually find they get a lot more cooperative when you start screaming in front of other customers. (note: this should be last resort )

screaming your head off like a child around others only makes everyone point and laugh at you. what a stupid way to get attention.

do you bang your head on the ground and cry too when you dont get your way?

gees..

There are FAR better ways of handling a situation then acting like you're a 5 year old.

[VTEC Mini]

Update; The found what caused the belt to jump. There is a rubber boot that covers the tensioner spring and it came a part and got lodged in the tensioner which kept it from moving to keep tension on the belt as it stretched since it was a new belt. That makes me happier about it.

[VTEC Mini]

Originally Posted by Whocares05050

Who did the belt replacement 20k miles ago? If it was honda, they carry a 1 year warranty on all the work and parts performed.

It truly sucks that this happened to you. No one, and i mean no one, is ready for big car repairs. If the valves are bent, the pistons could be screwed up too....


The cheapest route for you to go, in all honestly, would to probably find a salvaged motor and swap it in. Not too hard too do with a couple buddies if you are mechanically inclined and you can even rent a engine stand for less than 150. Save yourself the labor of putting it in, and the motor complete should be between 1500-3500.

Atleast you will not be playing the guessing game and have other things go wrong destroying it again...

As with anything though, its all mechanics. Its a motor. These things do happen every day. Just because you spend thousands in one place, dosnt mean they should replace this engine or top end for free/discounted. They are in business to make money and the car is after all almost 10 years old. nothing is guaranteed.

Another possible thing to keep in mind, is that with older Hondas, that when you replace the belt, you HAVE to replace the tensioner. its a must. This is the exact reason why. Ive known many, many Honda motors that blew there motors all becuase of the tensioner wasnt changed when it was due. usually at 75k miles is when i always changed them. 80k, i think, is what the manual calls for. 20k miles ago, was the tensioner replaced along with the belt?

The service writer probably dosnt know, as he said. the mechanic may not either. You have to tear apart the head and physically look at the pistons to see what other damage is caused. Again, they are not in business for free... inspection/diagnostic takes time and money.

I think, you may be over reacting a bit here. Im sorry, i really am, but **** happens. I would call them up, set up an appointment for the service manager, be real calm and cool and see if theres a better price they can do. If not, go somewhere else. Honda is a dealership after all and go by book time to the T. Other shops can save you some money and there are a ton out there that know what they are doing too.

Her cars no longer new, and way past warranty. even a highly maintained car an have issues. Please dont take what i said the worng way, i only mean the best.

Keep us updated as to what you end up doing.

*Edit - If yo bought the car used, from this dealer, and not in 02, then this changes everything. You should also, on a used car, have an extended or certified warranty coverage up to a certain time period. Not sure since i dont have all the information.

What my back ground is I have been working cars and turning wrenches all my life. I started when I was in diapers sitting on my dad's '55 Chevy truck fender while he worked on it handing him wrenches and holding bolts. At age 10 I changed my first intake gasket on a Volvo. Junior high, I got rides to school form my older brother as a trade off from wrenching on his VW Baja bug and keeping it running. In high School I restored a 65' Mustang (was my girlfriends at the time) while I rebuilt my 51' Chevy pick up. Got out of school and went to college and became a certified aircraft mechanic. Got a 57' Chevy Bel Air and restored it. Worked on some civilian aircraft but joined the military and became an aircraft mechanic working on F-14 A and B and F/A- 18 Hornet aircraft. Got out, Went to work as a private mechanic for an oil pipe inspection company working on everything from lawn mowers to Crown Vic's, F -150 to F- 450 trucks, Peter Built and Kenworth hydro cranes, fork lifts and all the inspection equipment. On the weekends I was on a pit crew for a sprint car. Got laid off and became a A/C, refrigeration and heating technician. I built and souped a show winning 04' MINI Cooper S. For the past four years I am a natural gas fired power plant mechanic at third largest power plant in California. I currently have a 71' Austin Mini that I have rebuilt waiting to go into full restoration and a Honda JDM D15 engine conversion once I gather up all the parts. So I know cars, machines, and with that- break downs.

What made me mad was "I don't know" and them wanting me to hand over all this cash with out a rout cause. To me there is no such thing as "I don't know" or "natural phenomenons". There is always a route cause or a design failure.

All of my life I have always pushed and done to be the best mechanic I can be and all my work has been top notch and I never used the term "I don't know." I expect that out of every one who turns a wrench (because it is not that hard) to be like that especially factory trained personnel.

I told these guys to tear it down to get an assessment to find the route cause before work was to be carried out on the head then get back to me. Not to get back to me with a bunch of "I don't know."

I am not asking it to be free unless it was a technician error or a new part failure. I know things cost money but I also know that a timing belt should not jump with only 20K on it for no reason and especially after it was just worked on and since this car has been well kept and taken care of since day one.

I don't do salvaged motors. Have been bit a couple of times before by that. You could very well end up with an engine worse than what you have. Since this is the family car I am not going to take that chance.

I know stuff breaks and wears out. That's the nature of the beast. As it turns out the rubber around the spring broke apart on the tensioner and lodged in the tensioner causing it not to keep tension on the new belt as it stretched. Did that happen instantly- I doubt it. When rubber deteriorates 99% of the time there are tell tale signs before it gives out like cracks and deformation. Should it have been caught when they changed the belt- I don't know if it is visible- never seen Honda's tensioner before- so I don't know. As it turns out the tensioner is not automatically replaced in there "timing belt package" (This included the timing belt and water pump and new coolant). To me that is absolutely stupid. To me that is like changing one shock but not the other, changing the oil with out changing the oil filter, and changing one set wheels brake pads but not the other wheel. That pisses me off in it's self because that is doing a job half assed. Since I am kinda of cynical toward other mechanics, I think it is set up that way to set the car up for failure for instances just like what I am going through now to bring in extra money. I agree with you that should be automatically replaced at belt change.

[MachVEvan]

Vtecmini - dude, this blows.

Yeah, things happen, but when it is unexpected...I agree "this is bull****!!!", would be what runs through my head.

At least you have a good mindset about it. I am also cynical to dealerships. I don't give them an inch because they will try to take a mile and then blame you for a botched repair.

Hope this works out.

[Ludercrz]

to a certain point i can understand the "i don't know" for what caused the issue but all the other I don't knows is just way too much...

[bmac]

If I got no results from the service manager,I would ask for an appointment with the
owner(s) and appeal to their sense of fairness and good business sense.Forget customer
service at American Honda. They are useless and non-responsive! It makes no sense to
lose a good customer and the dealership has plenty of flexibility to make you happy.
GOOD LUCK!

[JCRZ]

this is why i dont let dealerships do any sort of maintenance. well usually i cant because im usually pretty modified to the point of voiding warranties so i dont bother going lol, unless its a blown motor . i hope all this works out for you man. good luck.