Civic Hybrid battery issues: same for CRZ?

[PhxHorn]

I've been reading about the CRZ for months now, and test drove one recently and I like the car. I currently drive a 2008 Civic (non hybrid), and I'm happy with it, but I wouldn't mind trading up, either.

I came across some articles about a battery issue with the Civic Hybrids, and I'm wondering if the same issue will apply to the CRZ. I know the CRZ is based on the Insight rather than the Civic, but if someone could get specific about why the CRZ's battery and engine are different from the Civic, I'd *really* like to hear about it.

It seems the battery in the Civic Hybrid is not showing as long a life as it should, and so a software update was applied some months ago, which dials back battery use at the expense of mileage and power. After realizing this update went too far, a second one was applied which seems to be a compromise. I know two Civic Hybrid owners, and neither are real happy these days. While the second update is an improvement, neither are getting the mileage they got before the updates.

The articles I found are here:

Honda Civic Hybrids need battery update - JSOnline

Nearly 100,000 Honda Civic Hybrids in North America need a software update to prevent their hybrid batteries from deteriorating or failing, American Honda Motor Co. said.

Some hybrid owners who have received the upgrade notice are concerned that the fix will undermine the car's fuel economy, the main reason people buy hybrids. The cause for concern: The consumer message from Honda tells owners that when the software is upgraded, the vehicle's gasoline engine - which is designed to save fuel by shutting down when the car stops in traffic or at an intersection - will restart sooner than it did before. Also, the system will reserve more battery power as a vehicle's speed increases.

The Civic Hybrid owners have been notified directly of the "product update" based on problems experienced by drivers in hot weather during frequent stop-and-go driving, with the air-conditioning on.

I'm in Phoenix, so this would directly affect me if the CRZ has the same battery, right?

Report: Honda's Civic Hybrid software fix hurting real-world mpg for some — Autoblog Green

According to a new Bloomberg report, the software update may indeed hurt gas mileage and acceleration; one driver said the update "made the car sluggish and slashed the vehicle's gas mileage." That driver claimed his car went from 45 miles per gallon to 33 after two of Honda's software updates, one last year and one several weeks ago.

DailyTech - Honda Civic Hybrids Encounter Battery Life Problems, Software Update Problematic for Some

Honda Motor Co.'s line of Civic hybrid's from 2006 to 2008 have encountered problems with battery life. The Japanese automaker's solution is to install software updates, which according to Civic hybrid owners, is making their vehicles considerably slower and has even cut the gas mileage.

Honda's high-tech batteries for these hybrids have been losing their ability to hold a charge years before the warranty is up, but Honda's policy is to not replace any batteries until they are completely dead. So instead of exchanging the old batteries for new ones, Honda began installing software updates that are supposed to extend the life of the battery and "improve performance," but Civic hybrid drivers are saying otherwise.

According to Jason Marchesano, a 2007 Civic hybrid owner from Overland Park, Kansas, his car battery lost its ability to hold a decent charge last year, and when approaching Honda about the problem, they installed a software update that cut the vehicle's fuel efficiency and made the car's response much slower. Several weeks ago, Marchesano went to Honda once again with the problem, which prompted yet another software update. With each additional update, his Civic became slower and less fuel efficient. Today, the vehicle receives 33 miles per gallon, when it originally received 45 mpg brand new.

[Synapz]

dont know.. i doubt anyone here has owned a cr-z long enough to find out if it has battery issues..

[bizzybear]

the CR-Z uses the same IMA system as the Insight with it's 10kW 13hp/58tq electric motor... the Civic Hybrid uses a more powerful 13kW electric motor with 20 hp/76tq...

i guess the reason for this is the Insight/CR-Z are much lighter than the Civic... the Civic uses the same 1.3L gas engine found in the Insight...

bigger electric motor = more battery power = you know the rest of the story...

[PhxHorn]

bigger electric motor = more battery power = you know the rest of the story...


I assume you're saying bigger drain on the battery? And so the Insight/CRZ depends less on the battery? I believe I read on another forum that the Insight battery is configured differently, and so is less prone to the Civic's issues. Is it safe to assume the same is true for the CRZ?

[TCroly]

Originally Posted by bizzybear

the CR-Z uses the same IMA system as the Insight with it's 10kW 13hp/58tq electric motor... the Civic Hybrid uses a more powerful 13kW electric motor with 20 hp/76tq...

i guess the reason for this is the Insight/CR-Z are much lighter than the Civic... the Civic uses the same 1.3L gas engine found in the Insight...

bigger electric motor = more battery power = you know the rest of the story...

This is a very significant difference in the IMA that I hadn't noticed before. The Civic Hybrid uses the same 1.3 liter engine as the Insight, but it utilizes a more powerful electric motor becuase it is running at 158 volts instead of the 100.8 volts for the Insight and CRZ electric motor. It stands to reason that supplying 158 volts will generate more heat and put more strain on the batteries than a similar capacity battery pack supplying 100.8 volts.

What it looks like to me is that Honda tried to "overdrive" the electric motor in the Civic hybrid and essentially "dialed back the boost" on the electric motor for the Insight and CRZ. As a result these two car's battery systems probably run cooler and do not get worked as hard as on the Civic. But at the same time since these systems generate less electric assist, gas mileage suffers a bit. And as a result the Insight is rated at lower fuel economy than the Civic and the CRZ, by virtue of it's larger engine, even a bit less gas mileage than the Insight.

[GoHuskies]

The Insights lower highway ratings comes from the lack of third stage cam mode on the engine where it can acheive diesel like low RPM numbers while cruising. The Insight doesn't get as much electric assist but still has less weight to haul around.

The CR-Z's big MPG drop is mostly the bigger 1.5L otto cycle engine, bigger and less efficient than the atkins engines in the Civic/Insight. Plus the MT version has the more sporty geared transmission.

[tonyE]

Originally Posted by GoHuskies

The Insights lower highway ratings comes from the lack of third stage cam mode on the engine where it can acheive diesel like low RPM numbers while cruising. The Insight doesn't get as much electric assist but still has less weight to haul around.

The CR-Z's big MPG drop is mostly the bigger 1.5L otto cycle engine, bigger and less efficient than the atkins engines in the Civic/Insight. Plus the MT version has the more sporty geared transmission.

Honda does not use an Atkins engine, that's Toyota's Synergy system.

Honda's IMA uses a VTEC motor.

The Insight lacks the electric motor that keeps the AC running while the engine goes into auto shut off mode. If the CRZ uses the Insight's simpler IMA system then it can not this. Hence, when are running the AC in stop and go traffic the Insight and CRZ will run the engine more (or you'll be hot and sweaty).