Has the CVT won in AX?

[bluesight]

I have two 1st gen Insights, one 5MT and one CVT. The CVT can be 2 to 4 seconds faster than the MT in typical AX runs (I did an early test side by side). With the CVT Insight, I consistently take 1st in HS in one club (MSCC) and usually can place 5th to 2nd in a more competitive club (Front Street HS - WAI). Nice thing is that my wife loves to drive the CVT, so life is good that way (plus I expect I spend about the least of anyone on gas/transport for my AX addiction). But I wouldn't mind doing better with a different car. The options are: A Mazda3, 2.3 or 2.5, MT (which my wife has a hard time driving); A CRZ MT (which my wife might drive if it's as easy as the MT Insight); Or a CRZ CVT (which would be a winner all around if it could beat a Mazda3 MT).

So, question is, how have folks been doing with CRZ CVTs on the AX circuit? I see that some on this Motor Sports forum show both 6MT and CVT as their cars, but I can't tell who has been competitive AXing with what.

By the way, the likely reasons the CVT Insight is faster are: engine torquing problems on MT at starts (I have a Stiffy damper, but never put it in), MT gearing ratios favoring MPG in second rather than performance (shouldn't be the case with CRZ), efficiency of the CVT (maybe as good as sequential manual?), and maybe simplicity of CVT (foot to the floor at all times). Also, the Insight CVT has 4 CVT settings, 2 of which make a difference in AX. S and D on the steering wheel (always use S), and D and L on the shifter (sometimes D works better on long straights, sometimes L works better on tight courses and in general). I see the CRZ CVT has a "Sport" button, but no L on the shifter.

Bluesight

[InsightRacer]

Can't say I have an answer, but I do have comments.

Interesting data about the 1st gen Insight. I had one (MT) but never did any AutoX. I did, however, take it to the drag strip a few times. It would do mid 16s in completely stock form. I've had the CR-Z to the strip a few times and it only does high 16s when it cools off a night. But that was in the summer and maybe in the fall, it would get a little faster with denser air (and a better A/F ratio).

So I have been AutoXing the CR-Z (6MT with a few mods). I'm too new to AutoX to say if the CR-Z is really good. I know I am doing OK and improving. The car is a good second or two faster than I am based on what I have seen experienced drivers do (in CR-Zs) and what I can do in a test and tune (practice). The club I have been running with doesn't do standard SCCA AutoX so they don't run H Stock. The use an index system where everybody runs against each other based on weight, tires and power . However, the top guy is usually someone with a well set up civic who's times aren't as good as the Cobras but when the index is applied, he seems to beat them.

And my mods put me out of H Stock. I'd have to put the original intake back on and use the stock wheels. So I'm not really intersted in SCCA at this point. But we'll see.

[holeydonut]

For what it's worth...6MT vs CVT Japanese CR-Zs. Race starts at the 4:00 minute mark of the video I think it's the Suzuka West Circuit? I can't really tell.
Check out the baller Nav screen on the CVT!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY78cRGFFSg

[holeydonut]

And here's a clip of Tsukuba / wet that includes a 6MT and CVT CR-Z.
Best Motoring - Honda CR-Z vs AE86 Levin vs Mazda Miata - YouTube

[bluesight]

Great racing vids, holeydonut. It looks like the stock CVT is at least competitive with the stock 6MT in high-speed action, which is really encouraging. Still would like to see definitive Solo II stuff... I expect that with the current results that the 6MT is getting relative to Minis and Mazda3s, the CVT may well be a good choice to be able to beat them as well...

Thanks and looks forward to more surprising vids and info...
Bluesight

[human668]

When you look at CVT and 6MT gear ratios of USDM CR-Z, CVT actually has an advantage.
Depends on the AX setup, if you find yourself running between ~22mph to ~40mph, 6MT may disappoint you. 1st gear tops out ~34mph and 2nd gear acceleration isn't fast below 38mph. When you are in a corner at 2nd gear going ~28mph, you will feel sad accelerating out of corner. And I find it rather difficult to smoothly shift down to 1st gear above 13mph.

[bluesight]

This sounds like the same behavior I see with the Insights. It appears not too much has changed with Honda basic hybrid coupe design going to the CRZ. I see a few tests, like at Edmunds, showing the CVT CRZ doing 0-60 in 9.2 sec vs 8.8 sec for the 6MT. By comparison, the Mazda3 is supposedly 8.1 sec and the MINI (base) is 8.4 sec. But this is just one of several data points to judge whether the CVT or the 6MT is competitive enough in HS AX to be a winner. Still looking for real-world examples...
Thanks
B

Originally Posted by human668

When you look at CVT and 6MT gear ratios of USDM CR-Z, CVT actually has an advantage.
Depends on the AX setup, if you find yourself running between ~22mph to ~40mph, 6MT may disappoint you. 1st gear tops out ~34mph and 2nd gear acceleration isn't fast below 38mph. When you are in a corner at 2nd gear going ~28mph, you will feel sad accelerating out of corner. And I find it rather difficult to smoothly shift down to 1st gear above 13mph.

[Hutchead]

I have been AutoXing with a CVT for a year now and winning H Stock, but there is not much competition. There have been 2 1st gen Insights (a husband and wife) that run occasionally. I beat the husband by .5-1 second, and the wife 2-3 seconds. Everyone has street tires.

One thing I have noticed about the CVT... if I come out of a slow corner (20mph) and get on the gas, the CVT sometimes seems to be about 1000rpm below where I want it to be. I will hit the flappy paddle to force a "downshift" coming out of the corner and get the rpm up. This is not always so easy as the flappy paddles are attached to the steering wheel not the steering column, so the paddle can be hard to find while you are in the middle of a turn.

Other than that the car has been a blast. Once the car gets above 20 it keeps the RPM high, so there it is always at the sweet spot on the power curve... something you can't get from a MT.

Star Specs are going on the spare set of rims this weekend, so I will have better tires for this upcoming season.

All my videos;

JeffHutchead's Channel - YouTube

[bluesight]

I need to get a gain of 2.5 to 3 sec over what my Insight does now in order to beat Mazda3s and MINIs in Front Street HS for WAI. I'm surprised that your CRX is only .5 to 1 sec over the local Insight, but it is hard to have "all things equal". Are (either of) the Insights also CVT?

I put StarSpecs on my Insight this season, and they have helped a bit over my old Azenis, though it took a race or two before they started to perform up to expectations.

B

Originally Posted by Hutchead

I have been AutoXing with a CVT for a year now and winning H Stock, but there is not much competition. There have been 2 1st gen Insights (a husband and wife) that run occasionally. I beat the husband by .5-1 second, and the wife 2-3 seconds. Everyone has street tires.

...

Star Specs are going on the spare set of rims this weekend, so I will have better tires for this upcoming season.

All my videos;

JeffHutchead's Channel - YouTube

[Hutchead]

The guy driving the Insight is a lot better driver than I... he has been at it for 20 years vs my 1. I know there is a MT and a CVT out of the pair, but I don't remember which is which.